Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

They're criminals. They're girls. They're criminal girls!
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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby Asianwarwallabe » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:06 pm

Seventh wrote:
alistair wrote:I doubt they did show the content to PEGI & ESRB & other boards

These kinds of comments are why we've had one thread closed and the subject removed out of another entirely. If you want to think it, fine, but if you want to be able to keep the discussion, please refrain from making them for the sake of the rest of the posters here.


It also just so happens that "those types" of comments are not far off from the truth, if not the truth itself.

NISA announced the censorship at the exact precise moment they announced the game itself. There is NOTHING to show the ratings boards, besides the Japanese version, so any and all feedback they receive about ratings is a flawed and inaccurate assessment, subject to changes NISA will do further along the line.

Basing your decision to censor around a flawed judgement without merit is beyond ludicrous.

This ignores the fact that this was all unofficial, of course.

This ignores the suspect nature of particular "issues raised (the possibility that there were none) by the ESRB/PEGI.

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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby Seventh » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:08 pm

I'm just saying. If the thread gets closed, you can't blame anyone but yourself.

As for the quoted comment that is supposedly "the truth," it's actually the exact opposite of the truth as we've been told they did in fact show the content to the boards - and I hardly think they need to see the translated text in these cases to know whether or not it's appropriate.
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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby lopez » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:22 pm

Seventh wrote:As for the quoted comment that is supposedly "the truth," it's actually the exact opposite of the truth as we've been told they did in fact show the content to the boards - and I hardly think they need to see the translated text in these cases to know whether or not it's appropriate.


Text does matter in their review, but that's probably the least of NISA's worries. The imagery is and will almost always be the main issue faced in getting the various rating.
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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby Seventh » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:24 pm

Text will matter in the review of the game as a whole, yes, but when judging the content that needs to be "censored," all they should need is be able to see it and hear it well enough, then NISA can obviously supply any necessary translations that aren't there on the game if such is required.
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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby Asianwarwallabe » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:35 pm

Seventh wrote:I'm just saying. If the thread gets closed, you can't blame anyone but yourself.

As for the quoted comment that is supposedly "the truth," it's actually the exact opposite of the truth as we've been told they did in fact show the content to the boards - and I hardly think they need to see the translated text in these cases to know whether or not it's appropriate.


Despite all evidence and hard facts, you'll claim contrary? It takes a certain something to do that. By the by, you unveil your ignorance of the ratings process.

The boards MUST rate everything, which includes text, and it takes these things into consideration when it judges. Context is incredibly important.

What material can you give these guys to rate the official WESTERN product, when the only product that exists is the Japanese one?

There's definitely something fishy about the decision to censor, and it sure aint the one given.

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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby Seventh » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:36 pm

What evidence and hard facts? You have none of these. All we have is Houk's statement - I don't think any of the boards have commented on this matter except saying that they can't comment until the game releases. Other games are other games.
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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby Houk » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:39 pm

Asianwarwallabe wrote:
Seventh wrote:I'm just saying. If the thread gets closed, you can't blame anyone but yourself.

As for the quoted comment that is supposedly "the truth," it's actually the exact opposite of the truth as we've been told they did in fact show the content to the boards - and I hardly think they need to see the translated text in these cases to know whether or not it's appropriate.


Despite all evidence and hard facts, you'll claim contrary? It takes a certain something to do that. By the by, you unveil your ignorance of the ratings process.

The boards MUST rate everything, which includes text, and it takes these things into consideration when it judges. Context is incredibly important.

What material can you give these guys to rate the official WESTERN product, when the only product that exists is the Japanese one?

There's definitely something fishy about the decision to censor, and it sure aint the one given.


There isn't really enough here to add anything to the FAQ, but I can say that the boards were given enough information and context about the materials, including descriptions and basic translations of the text and settings, to form an intelligent opinion. You're looking for conspiracy where there is none, and this is exactly the type of distraction that prevents actual meaningful conversation from happening.

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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby bob slim » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:44 pm

I just want to say this I dont like the censorship and all with 1 version fits all regions. But I still want to get the game 1 little nick pick I have is how much steam its gonna be.I hope it dont cover up all the sexy parts just sayiny and the artwork looking bad, Thats the only problem I have all though I wish the audio can stay but cant be help I guess,
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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby lopez » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:52 pm

I'd have to find the comment at Gaijinworks, but I believe Vic Ireland said there's an option where companies can do an online program-based evaluation for a game. He did something like that for Class of Heroes 2.

http://www.gaijinworks.com/interact/showthread.php?205-Class-of-Heroes-2-is-rated-T-and-E10-Wait-what&highlight=Esrb

Seems like the online option is viable for digital releases and follows a different process where the ESRB doesn't even test the game directly until after it has been released :shock:

It looks like for retail games, the game companies fill out a questionnaire and send a DVD of what they think is "sensitive" content and the ESRB judges based on that. It seems like the ESRB only play test the actual game after it has been released :shock:

Note: Info came from the official ESRB website. Thought I'd share for those curious.
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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby Houk » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:59 pm

Yeah, submissions for online-only games are much more straightforward and streamlined. Still, all of the same standards and guidelines for the actual content apply.

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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby Asianwarwallabe » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:17 pm

Houk wrote:There isn't really enough here to add anything to the FAQ, but I can say that the boards were given enough information and context about the materials, including descriptions and basic translations of the text and settings, to form an intelligent opinion. You're looking for conspiracy where there is none, and this is exactly the type of distraction that prevents actual meaningful conversation from happening.


That's great, but nothing you said invalidates my posts, nor the points behind them. Every scrap of "information and context" is subject to change, as it is simply not the final version. Belittling it as "conspiracy" when it is well presented and (I feel, at least) argued does little to endear you to my mind.

Furthermore, they were given "descriptions." Being told "This bit of text here says "this character" is blahblahblah" is not the same as judging your final product, which may say something entirely different. Even if it's completely minor.

Any rating divined in this manner is thus without merit, as it's false representation of your product (which doesn't even exist,) so they are still rating a subjective interpretation of the Japanese version, and not the actual Western one.

Therefore, every analysis they give you is biased and worthless, especially in so far as considering such a heinous and vile practice such as Orwellian censorship.

P.S.

We've been over this about discussion. It is not meaningless. It's self-evident it is the exact opposite, in fact, as that's just about all people WANT to talk about. Clearly, it is not meaningless.

I would thank you to stop threatening to censor me on this false premise. Creating an uneasy atmosphere of oppression should you speak about certain topics does you no favors.
Last edited by Asianwarwallabe on Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby neonie » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:23 pm

Asianwarwallabe wrote:Every scrap of "information and context" is subject to change, as it is simply not the final version..


I... that's not at all true though.

NISA doesn't have programmers. Nothing about the game is going to change in any significant way that the final version is going to be any different from NISA showed them. NISA translates/localizes stuff. They don't have coders. The people who are doing the changes for the western version of the game are N1 Japan. What NISA showed them is, for all intents and purposes, the final version of the game.
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Houk wrote:THE HYPOTHETICAL CENSORSHIP OF BABIES!

Spoiler:

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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby BDSMKane » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:26 pm

Houk wrote:
Spoiler:
So, lots of people have had questions/concerns about the decisions we've made in localizing the title. While I have made some statements myself about the changes we're making, HERE is our official statement as a company. Whatever I may have personally said, you can consider this our company's definitive position.

Here are some common questions I've heard, so please look this over before posting.

Q: Did you make these changes based on one specific region? If so, why not just release different versions in different regions?
A: No, these changes are not based on one region. We made our decision after talking with EVERY region's rating board and getting feedback from each one. So different versions isn't an option in this case regardless, and more generally speaking, different versions for different regions is incredibly cost-prohibitive for a company our size, and so isn't a great option overall.

Q: Can you release an unedited DLC pack for each region later?
A: No. Any DLC that may change a game's rating must be evaluated separately, and if it does get a higher rating, the main game will also gain that rating retroactively.

Q: Was this decision actually made to appeal to a wider audience?
A: No. We made only the changes we felt were necessary in order to release the game at all in each region. If you hear us refer to "reaching a wider audience" it's because if we can't release a game in a given region, then we aren't reaching that audience.

Q: Do you honestly believe the changes were necessary? I heard that the ESRB/PEGI/OFLC doesn't actually care about this kind of content.
A: We can't comment about the information other people have or haven't gotten from individual rating boards. We were in touch with the rating boards ourselves and made our decision accordingly. It's up to you to decide if you believe us or not, but we've said all there is to say on that subject.

Q: Can you tell me exactly what each region said, what their problems were with the content, etc.?
A: Unfortunately, no. We've released as much information as possible regarding our discussions with the rating boards. There's nothing more for us to say on that topic.

Q: What about this other game that seems to have much worse content? If game X was okay, shouldn't this one be okay?
A: Since we weren't involved with games from any other company, we can't comment on their ratings or content. You would have to discuss that with the rating boards that actually reviewed them, or the companies that released them. We can only make decisions based on our direct discussions with the rating boards.

Q: Why not just submit the final, unedited version of the game to each rating board, and if they have issues, change it then?
A: Getting a game rated is one of the last things we do in the localization process. We can't get an official rating until the game has been fully translated and programmed for a Western release, which is also when we begin debugging the game (QA). Due to the time it takes to get a rating, we sometimes don't get all regional ratings until near the end of QA. If we were to get a rating that prevented us from releasing the game at this point, it would have a huge effect on the schedule of not only that game, but every project we have lined up after it. The game would have to be reprogrammed and retested, which while it may not sound like much trouble...very much is. For a company of our size, this simply isn't feasible. This is precisely why we contacted the boards ahead of time - it was a decision that had to be made well in advance of submission.

If anyone has any other questions that aren't addressed here, I'll be happy to add them. I'll try to keep up on the thread, but other than this original post and any updates here, I will likely not be engaging in conversation - I want to keep all information centralized. You're free to PM me as well, but based on recent PM conversations with people trying to threaten my job and other problems over my replies, I will be limiting my interaction there as well.

THE MOST IMPORTANT PART: I'm not going to limit discussion of the topic itself, but any amount of hostility, aggression, or otherwise negative or destructive conversation will be strictly moderated. That's true whether it's aimed at us directly or at other users.

Thank you for the thread, hopefully things don't get too out of hand here. Though, as redundant as it may sound, perhaps updating the original post with exactly what is being changed wouldn't hurt, as I already noticed one post commenting on that.
neonie wrote:I like this new method of "user has question, FAQ gets updated". Makes it so that way if a new question does get asked, it gets answered at the top of the thread. Makes repeat questions harder.

I agree, it seems very effective.
lopez wrote:I'd have to find the comment at Gaijinworks, but I believe Vic Ireland said there's an option where companies can do an online program-based evaluation for a game. He did something like that for Class of Heroes 2.

http://www.gaijinworks.com/interact/showthread.php?205-Class-of-Heroes-2-is-rated-T-and-E10-Wait-what&highlight=Esrb

Seems like the online option is viable for digital releases and follows a different process where the ESRB doesn't even test the game directly until after it has been released :shock:

It looks like for retail games, the game companies fill out a questionnaire and send a DVD of what they think is "sensitive" content and the ESRB judges based on that. It seems like the ESRB only play test the actual game after it has been released :shock:

Note: Info came from the official ESRB website. Thought I'd share for those curious.

That's something new we could discuss. It was brought up over on the IFI boards in regards to Monster Monpiece, since that title was digital-only and submitted to the ESRB under the self-review option. As was discussed over there, it was peculiar that the PEGI rating was 12(our rough T equivalent in the USA), but the ESRB rated it M(roughly PEGI 16), and one of the only titles in this genre, perhaps THE only localized IF/CH release, to have a lower rating with the PEGI than the ESRB. This lead to a lot of speculation that IFI was harsher with their own rating than the ESRB themselves would have been, and of course that some content cuts were unnecessary.

I'm personally going to speculate that CG is going to get a T if rated by the ESRB and a M if self-rated, and will receive a PEGI16 regardless. This is mostly based on regional stances on BDSM and violence in general, and rating history by both boards on other releases. But I also don't buy into the "USA is so harsh on sexuality" rumor that seems to persist, since there seems to be little to no proof of it ever impacting games until it reaches the point of actual hardcore sex, and even then has been allowed in a few cases if it isn't graphic.
BDSMKane wrote:A defective product was released by NIS America on March 25, 2014.....and any support for that product is(by all appearances) non-existent. That's the core issue, and it reeks of poor business ethics.

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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby Asianwarwallabe » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:27 pm

neonie wrote:Nothing about the game is going to change in any significant way that the final version is going to be any different from NISA showed them. NISA translates/localizes stuff.


Saying nothing is going to change about the game, and then in your very next sentence telling everyone exactly what is going to change is significant, for a variety of reasons.

Furthermore, shifting the blame isn't going to earn you any respect around here. N1 may be the ones coding it, sure, but NISA are the ones directing their fingers, as it were, with the things they translate (and censor.)

Were it not the case, then NIS could release the title without the need for this middle man business.

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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby BDSMKane » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:44 pm

Asianwarwallabe wrote:Furthermore, shifting the blame isn't going to earn you any respect around here.

Acting hostile towards members who are not acting hostile towards you won't earn you any respect either. Again, as said in another thread, I'm with you almost 100% on your stance, but you should calm down and behave more appropriately. This last post of yours I'm quoting just happened to be aimed at one of the more vocally -opposed- members to NISA censorship on these forums, especially among the older members. And while you shouldn't feel the need to berate -any- member, doing it to those who have ever been critical enough to agree with your stance is very self-defeating.
BDSMKane wrote:A defective product was released by NIS America on March 25, 2014.....and any support for that product is(by all appearances) non-existent. That's the core issue, and it reeks of poor business ethics.


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