Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

They're criminals. They're girls. They're criminal girls!
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Screwy
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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby Screwy » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:50 pm

Reposting a PM I'd sent to Houk since I've seen no reply in a while:
"Alright, since my posts are getting deleted, I'll compose my thoughts into PM form. Let's start with my first post today.
I'd brought about the point that you deny the censorship being caused by a region's guidelines, but then you remind everyone that the censorship was done via feedback given by multiple rating boards. Why is this?
Second, I vaguely remember you saying that the ESRB's feedback was not official classification, and that the people at NISA were implied to have not shared a formal discussion with a great number of the organization's employees (same for PEGI). However, the ESRB and PEGI have discussed other games of a VERY similar nature (see: Agarest 2), and even PEGI said that removing any references to the character's age (because it has a bathing minigame, much like Mugen Souls) would've done just fine. Going back a bit, why did you base your official localization off unofficial feedback?
Third, considering the ESRB/PEGI's general stance on this situation, this leaves one last candidate for this whole debacle: Australia. This contradicts what you have said in where it wasn't done due to a region's guidelines.
Now, let's say the ESRB and/or PEGI were, in fact, against this. Why not give formal proof that you contacted either of the boards (as we gave proof of PEGI's responses to us normal consumers uninvolved with NIS America or any of its affiliates)? I would trust you, but I've been burned too bad in the past, and I'm not willing to take your word or order anything else from you until you fix your practices (and here I thought I was going to enjoy SDR2 and Disgaea 4's Limited Edition).
Lastly, I remember you stating that including the unedited content in a DLC pack would be a technical impossibility. I beg to differ. Look at examples like the Japanese version of The Evil Within, or Sega with Shogun 2/Rome 2 and their blood DLC packs. I'll use TEW as my main example here to elaborate on the matter. Japan's own rating system is actually more strict than the ESRB/PEGI, and actually doesn't allow any nudity at all, and gore automatically earns a CERO Z. Because of this, TEW is getting released with no gore for a CERO D rating, while a DLC pack will be released that includes the gore, but the DLC pack is CERO Z. Now, why wouldn't this work for Criminal Girls? Why not release a DLC pack that lets people enjoy the full package, while letting other people play the game without it at their leisure? The DLC is actually better suited in this example, as the game is still going to get an M rating from the ESRB, and PEGI will give the base game a 16+, while the DLC will probably be marked 18+. This is a possible maneuver, so why do you wish to sidestep it so anxiously?
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to read my thoughts on the situation, and I hope we can come to an outcome that pleases everybody, including your core and (previously) dedicated fanbase."

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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby Houk » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:58 pm

I did reply to your PM - encouraging you to read this thread since some of your questions were already answered.

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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby Asianwarwallabe » Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:59 pm

BDSMKane wrote:
Asianwarwallabe wrote:Furthermore, shifting the blame isn't going to earn you any respect around here.

Acting hostile towards members who are not acting hostile towards you won't earn you any respect either. Again, as said in another thread, I'm with you almost 100% on your stance, but you should calm down and behave more appropriately. This last post of yours I'm quoting just happened to be aimed at one of the more vocally -opposed- members to NISA censorship on these forums, especially among the older members. And while you shouldn't feel the need to berate -any- member, doing it to those who have ever been critical enough to agree with your stance is very self-defeating.


If you define 'berate" or "hostile" as "literally anything that could be construed as even remotely threatening to my concept of self, up to and including a glance or thought" then I can see where you are coming from.

However, that said, you're jumping up the wrong tree here. I have absolutely zero ill will towards that guy, nor did I express it any way, shape, or form. Attacking an argument (let's not kid ourselves, that's entirely what we're doing here) is not the same as "berating" a person.

This is going beyond sensitive, guys. Beyond hyper-sensitive, even. Or should I say your "berating" me is hostile?

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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby Houk » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:02 pm

Asianwarwallabe wrote:
BDSMKane wrote:
Asianwarwallabe wrote:Furthermore, shifting the blame isn't going to earn you any respect around here.

Acting hostile towards members who are not acting hostile towards you won't earn you any respect either. Again, as said in another thread, I'm with you almost 100% on your stance, but you should calm down and behave more appropriately. This last post of yours I'm quoting just happened to be aimed at one of the more vocally -opposed- members to NISA censorship on these forums, especially among the older members. And while you shouldn't feel the need to berate -any- member, doing it to those who have ever been critical enough to agree with your stance is very self-defeating.


If you define 'berate" or "hostile" as "literally anything that could be construed as even remotely threatening to my concept of self, up to and including a glance or thought" then I can see where you are coming from.

However, that said, you're jumping up the wrong tree here. I have absolutely zero ill will towards that guy, nor did I express it any way, shape, or form. Attacking an argument (let's not kid ourselves, that's entirely what we're doing here) is not the same as "berating" a person.

This is going beyond sensitive, guys. Beyond hyper-sensitive, even. Or should I say your "berating" me is hostile?

Instead of defending your attitude and doubling down on it, maybe you should take a second to look at their perspective and realize that, if you want people to listen to you, you should talk to them in a way that actually makes them want to listen to you. When even people who are on your side are asking you to take a step back, maybe you should listen to them.

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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby bob slim » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:06 pm

(see: Agarest 2), and even PEGI said that removing any references to the character's age (because it has a bathing minigame
This was something I didnt even know till today and it made me question a lot of things. I read that whole thing if the child looking character age isnt even said, In the game its no way to prove shes a child so its not even a problem with that part anyway
I only talk when its something Instereting to talk about
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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby Seventh » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:08 pm

I think the front page already addresses the issue of what other games do.
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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby Esper » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:08 pm

I fully expect this game to get a Teen rating from the ESRB after being censored the way it is. I'll not be buying it unless an uncensored version comes out. That's really all I have to say on the subject now.

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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby Screwy » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:09 pm

Houk wrote:I did reply to your PM - encouraging you to read this thread since some of your questions were already answered.

Oh, I seemed to have mixed up the times on the messages.
However, you DO realize I delved into great detail regarding said issues, correct? I've looked through the FAQ and I didn't seem to find any other post that explained and asked as much as the one I'd posted.

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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby Houk » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:10 pm

bob slim wrote:(see: Agarest 2), and even PEGI said that removing any references to the character's age (because it has a bathing minigame
This was something I didnt even know till today and it made me question a lot of things. I read that whole thing if the child looking character age isnt even said, In the game its no way to prove shes a child so its not even a problem with that part anyway


I can't speak for other companies, but I know in our experience this isn't actually true. Appearance alone can be enough to judge, if it's blatant enough.

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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby Screwy » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:16 pm

Houk wrote:
bob slim wrote:
Screwy wrote:(see: Agarest 2), and even PEGI said that removing any references to the character's age (because it has a bathing minigame

This was something I didnt even know till today and it made me question a lot of things. I read that whole thing if the child looking character age isnt even said, In the game its no way to prove shes a child so its not even a problem with that part anyway


I can't speak for other companies, but I know in our experience this isn't actually true. Appearance alone can be enough to judge, if it's blatant enough.

It WAS posted before, but that PEGI email response does provide proof of it happening, and I do recall PEGI acknowledging how some child-like characters can have outrageous ages and still not be classified as children (see: Etna).
Also, I can't help but notice that I still have not seen hard proof of the ESRB/PEGI's "objections".
Until then, I'm seeing this for what I think it really is: A sort of "personal agenda" parts of the company are censoring this for.

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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby bob slim » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:17 pm

Houk wrote:
bob slim wrote:(see: Agarest 2), and even PEGI said that removing any references to the character's age (because it has a bathing minigame
This was something I didnt even know till today and it made me question a lot of things. I read that whole thing if the child looking character age isnt even said, In the game its no way to prove shes a child so its not even a problem with that part anyway


I can't speak for other companies, but I know in our experience this isn't actually true. Appearance alone can be enough to judge, if it's blatant enough.
When I say that im talking about
the rating boards cant prove it You can give them any age you want like with atelier rorona or no age
I only talk when its something Instereting to talk about
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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby neonie » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:18 pm

Houk wrote: When even people who are on your side are asking you to take a step back, maybe you should listen to them.


This is, I think, my main problem with the people who have been coming in over the last few days. I am someone who is personally against censorship, though obviously not to the degree of some people (I can deal with it as long as I find it personally unobtrusive), but I personally support finding solutions to it.

If you come in here and have a problem with censorship, by all means, come in and let your problem be known. Every new voice is good. What's bad and unhelpful, and I actually think detrimental to the cause of people who are against censorship is when people:

A.Come in here and are accusational, with zero to no proof of what they are accusing.
B.Come in here are super aggressive and abrasive. (And this is coming from someone who, I find mind self to personally be a bit abrasive at times, but this is a situation where that just doesn't help).
C.Come in here with insults/swears/unhelpfully bad attitudes.

If you have a question, ask it.
If you have a statement to make, say it.
If you oppose the censorship, tell us why or hell just say it.

The best thing you can do during a debate, is not making your side look bad. People put too much emphasis on trying to make the other side look bad, while not realizing that makes them come off terribly.
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Houk wrote:THE HYPOTHETICAL CENSORSHIP OF BABIES!

Spoiler:

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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby Asianwarwallabe » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:21 pm

Houk wrote:Instead of defending your attitude and doubling down on it, maybe you should take a second to look at their perspective and realize that, if you want people to listen to you, you should talk to them in a way that actually makes them want to listen to you. When even people who are on your side are asking you to take a step back, maybe you should listen to them.


The one time you even bother to respond to me, you do so in a manner attacking the arguer, instead of the argument.

Great stuff, chap. Keep on dispensing fallacies with your bad self.

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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby Houk » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:21 pm

Screwy wrote:
Houk wrote:I did reply to your PM - encouraging you to read this thread since some of your questions were already answered.

Oh, I seemed to have mixed up the times on the messages.
However, you DO realize I delved into great detail regarding said issues, correct? I've looked through the FAQ and I didn't seem to find any other post that explained and asked as much as the one I'd posted.


Looking through your questions, I don't see anything that isn't answered by the FAQ.

1. As the FAQ says, our edits were made after talking with all of the rating boards. Our decision is a reflection of discussions with ALL boards, not any specific one.

2. As the FAQ says, other companies' experiences with the boards don't factor in. I explained why we had to make this choice before the game was localized at the bottom of the FAQ.

3. See answer number one.

4. As the FAQ says, we've shared everything we can regarding our talks with the rating boards. They have a policy of not disclosing private conversations between them and publishers, and we've chosen to follow the same approach.

5. As the FAQ says, using DLC to add the content back in isn't possible both because it would affect the original rating, and it's unfeasible for a company our size. I didn't say it was impossible - only unfeasible. I'm not going to debate the specifics of why that is - you can either believe me or not, the choice is yours.

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Re: Criminal Girls official info thread (read this first)

Postby Houk » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:22 pm

Asianwarwallabe wrote:
Houk wrote:Instead of defending your attitude and doubling down on it, maybe you should take a second to look at their perspective and realize that, if you want people to listen to you, you should talk to them in a way that actually makes them want to listen to you. When even people who are on your side are asking you to take a step back, maybe you should listen to them.


The one time you even bother to respond to me, you do so in a manner attacking the arguer, instead of the argument.

Great stuff, chap. Keep on dispensing fallacies with your bad self.


I wasn't attacking you, only giving advice. Now get back on topic and stop making this about yourself. The rules of the thread are quite clear in the OP.


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