Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby weeabro » Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:38 pm

Meanwhile, Nathaniel Fury over at PQube is saying things like, "In terms of platform holders and ratings boards, you’d be surprised what you can get away with. Gal*Gun: Double Peace passed quite painlessly for example."

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Rednal » Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:51 pm

If I remember correctly, one of NISA's employees agreed earlier, noting they wouldn't have needed to change anything in Gal*Gun if they were the ones localizing it. So... what that game is doing is fine, apparently.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Prinny Supervisor » Tue Jul 12, 2016 10:27 pm

weeabro wrote:Meanwhile, Nathaniel Fury over at PQube is saying things like, "In terms of platform holders and ratings boards, you’d be surprised what you can get away with. Gal*Gun: Double Peace passed quite painlessly for example."


Now I'll say again, I'm just an editor, so I don't get to make the actual big decisions when it comes to what our company would or should do, but in my experience, yeah, getting GalGun and Valkyrie Drive passed without getting an AO rating would probably be pretty easy. If I were presented with either of those projects, I would argue with my superiors (if that conversation ever even came up, which it probably wouldn't) that changing any content would be totally inappropriate and unnecessary, given that there is next to zero risk of either of those games getting an AO. Even with Criminal Girls 2, I argued that we shouldn't change a thing (except of course terminology/sound edits that we had to make for the first game, for consistency). But I acknowledged that the game was indeed at risk of an AO, as substantiated with the conversations we had with the ESRB. I don't like it, and I still push for an "uncensored" Steam version whenever it comes up, but I completely understand why that decision was made by the company. It does make sense.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Sleepyprinny99 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:29 pm

To be honest, the fact that you (Prinny Supervisor) take the time and patience to handle threads like this as transparently as possible is worth something in my view.

Plus, given what I know about/read into...no, NISA hasn't done anything "wrong".

It reads like the difference in perspective of how we view the product and the expectations of that product.
Consumers tend to only judge things from a "recieved final product" stance which, understandably, omits of of much of the grey areas constantly being brought up in response to the why's of the end product's handling. Somewhere along the line it looks like transparency and disclosure got twisted into entitlement to acquiesce to consumer expectation.

Case in point...Gal*Gun and Valkyrie Drive are being released uncensored, therefore Criminal Girls 2 should as well.
XSEED and IFI release "uncensored" products, therefore NISA should as well.

The underpinning logic being that, by virtue of these precedent examples is that nothing NISA says or does, shy of giving us what we presume to be our right and, by extension, your responsibility, as a "niche" publisher.

Except that's not how it works, at all.

Businesses are beholden to its policies and unless they change for whatever reason...have nothing to do with "would or should". Likewise, whatever anyone else keeps bringing up as "relevant"examples as fuel to why NISA's decisions are wrong...are moot points beyond debate and w
In whose individual sentiments save those parties involved is only "meaningful" on forums or to those who can actually influence ratings...other than venting...it's just a pointlessly circular argument whose only merits are the occasional good points and venting of the self entitled affected market, and this includes me...otherwise I wouldn't bother.

However, GAl*Gun is NOT CG 2, neither is Valkyrie Drive...their content qnd context is different. The fact that lewd content, target audiences, type of publishers, ratings and general appeal aesthetic *may* be similiar are, in point of fact, incidental only.

Those elements in no way say anything more than that...period. Bringing argument shows a general oversimplification of what "pertinent context" means with "case by case" reviews by the ESRB.

CG 2 isn't in the same category as Gal*Gun, nor are its circumstances the same saying that it should be okay because of this game or that game...isn't convincing, in the same way that saying NDA's and "jobs are on the line" won't convince everyone.

I don't envy the folks in the business who deal with the crap we can't see, nor the decisions forced on from on high, save those with good sound reasoning behind them. Of course, mileage varies based on results and results are what consumers have, for better or worse.

We're selfish like that and assume we have more input what we get at the line...filter after filter after filter.

Nobody likes what's going on, but that doesn't matter in the broader context.
There are products are coming out uncensored while still others that aren't. Because of CG 1's odd handling and CG 2's impending release, this was bound to be an issue.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Sleepyprinny99 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 11:58 pm

(Damn typos...ugh).

I'm glad CG 2 is coming out, not because its an ecchi title full of fan service, well not simply because anyway...I'd be a liar if I said anything like that. I'm glad because I honestly like the series and nd the games are a solid experience...it waz a good dungeon crawl that let "me" be involved in developing the party and I got attached...blah.

So, of course I'm gonna internally rage over tge censorship, the whole "Damn you NISA! How dare you deny us the authentic content!!! Didn't you learn from last time!!!??? *rage and holler with righteous fury*"

But...on one level, this case looks like a sincere attempt to avoid censoring beyond the bare minimum...of course redoing the art *will* spark debate and either side can argue with valid points their on its being justified or crossing the line and the sound files being chopped out...are lamentable...not necessarily on the grounds of general perviness (it's a minor factor though...I cannot lie, and won't) but because something *is* lost with a change like that regardless of why...silence will never validate consent in this conext and just makes things awkward in a bad way...of course, it's understandable...technical limitations and whatnot....citing consistency, while valid in this case nevertheless sound hollow.

I plan on supporting the game but its a case where I can't support the LE release, nevetmi d the party bag edition...had the sound been salvageable in some fashion(what I mean is the sounds not liable to cause overt objections here...) and more on the redrawn artwork than it'd be a different story and I afmit that might be impossible at the moment..but that isn't what one would deem unreasonable either.

I honestly just want the series to have the treatment they deserve without the excuses, or at least moves to that end and seing you mentioned being an editor and a main point of contact in CG 2's handling with the ESRB (Prinny Supervisor) than I'll assume you have similiar sentiments withat least some of my own concerns...though, I haven't seen much to make me believe otherwise so I'm gonna be optimistic.

It's just...we haven't seen much and that kind of anxiousness makes thes3 vicious circles so....circularly vicious. Again, nothing you, likely any9ne really can do but hey...venting.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby neonie » Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:44 am

Sleepyprinny99 wrote:Businesses are beholden to its policies and unless they change for whatever reason...have nothing to do with "would or should". Likewise, whatever anyone else keeps bringing up as "relevant"examples as fuel to why NISA's decisions are wrong...are moot points beyond debate and w
In whose individual sentiments save those parties involved is only "meaningful" on forums or to those who can actually influence ratings...other than venting...it's just a pointlessly circular argument whose only merits are the occasional good points and venting of the self entitled affected market, and this includes me...otherwise I wouldn't bother.


I'm not here to vent. Although I know I'm in the minority, but I actually enjoy these discussions to some extent, even knowing full well nothing I say or learn will have an affect on the end product. I enjoy hearing even the more futile arguments and seeing input from people or progressing these arguments and asking questions. Like the age thing. I learned something from the ESRB and Prinny Supervisors response to that stuff. I enjoy learning how all this stuff works and what's relevant and what's not.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby DizzyQViper » Wed Jul 13, 2016 1:50 pm

Prinny Supervisor wrote:
weeabro wrote:Meanwhile, Nathaniel Fury over at PQube is saying things like, "In terms of platform holders and ratings boards, you’d be surprised what you can get away with. Gal*Gun: Double Peace passed quite painlessly for example."


Now I'll say again, I'm just an editor, so I don't get to make the actual big decisions when it comes to what our company would or should do, but in my experience, yeah, getting GalGun and Valkyrie Drive passed without getting an AO rating would probably be pretty easy. If I were presented with either of those projects, I would argue with my superiors (if that conversation ever even came up, which it probably wouldn't) that changing any content would be totally inappropriate and unnecessary, given that there is next to zero risk of either of those games getting an AO. Even with Criminal Girls 2, I argued that we shouldn't change a thing (except of course terminology/sound edits that we had to make for the first game, for consistency). But I acknowledged that the game was indeed at risk of an AO, as substantiated with the conversations we had with the ESRB. I don't like it, and I still push for an "uncensored" Steam version whenever it comes up, but I completely understand why that decision was made by the company. It does make sense.


So why not take the gamble for a change? If the game does get an M rating in its original state than nothing needs be censored and everyone is happy. If not well then at least people can never accuse you for not trying.
Yes i understand it costs money but i honestly think NISA could do to regain some goodwill from the costumers since i have seen allot of displeased ones and not just over CG2 censorship. (No people have not forgotten Ar Tonelico 2 shoddy localisation and bugs, Ar Tonelico 3's bugs, Mugen Souls censorship, Renaming a character from Esty Erheart to Esty Dee in Atelier, PS3 Witch and the 100 Knight crashes that were never patched, Neptunia series questionable localisation, CG1 censorship, etc)

Right now its hard to fault people for thinking NISA is not trying hard enough to release this game uncensored or even accusing NISA of being pro-censorship/sjw/feminist/whatever due to NISA refusal to undo CG1's censorship for the PC version when other publishers are shipping their games uncensored no matter what your say unless you can wave an actual AO rating rating in peoples face and say: we told you so.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby knightnightmare » Wed Jul 13, 2016 7:31 pm

Well I honestly wanna see more examples of the edits before I say one way or other on if I get this or not. I wasn't too concerned when I thought it was just bondage related things being edited, but when you start talking about clothing and poses being done as well, it throws up more flags.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby weeabro » Wed Jul 13, 2016 9:00 pm

DizzyQViper wrote:Yes i understand it costs money


It really shouldn't, not for re-submissions anyway. It sounds to me like the ESRB could use some changes, and perhaps a process specifically for localized games, seeing they're somewhat of a special case. Whacking game publishers for thousands of dollars on each submission, or fining them a million dollars for missteps seems like quite the racket. I'm not quite sure how the board ended up with such power and leverage, but it doesn't set well with me.

A one-time fee for the entire review process, including re-submissions would be more friendly toward smaller publishers, and if it were me, I would do away with the draconian fines completely, because they likely only serve to line the pockets of the folks at the top. How does the ESRB determine intent? Do they launch an investigation when it appears a publisher has misrepresented the content of a game? I imagine the burden of proof rests completely on them, rather than on the publisher or developer.

I'm also quite curious how the ESRB wormed its way into every major retailer, and why those retailers actively enforce anti-consumer practices. If a retailer wants to deny sales to minors, wonderful, however refusing to carry unrated or AO games is going too far. In banning AO games from sale, they are effectively denying my right as an adult to enjoy whatever entertainment I choose, so long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of others.

The negative stigma of AO games really needs to come to an end, as does the 1990s mentality displayed by retailers and the ESRB.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Ringwraith » Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:24 pm

Well, the ESRB has to pay their staff, so the money has to come from somewhere, and making sure there are heft charges for resubmitting (which doesn't cost any less of their time, really) theoretically discourages actively wasting their time.

Like how platform holders tend to charge devs for making patches.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby neonie » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:25 am

That's kind of the problem the whole argument of people who say NISA should "Submit the game and get an AO rating to prove that it would."

It's a gigantic waste of not just NISA's, but everyone involved's time and money. It's also extremely irresponsible as a publisher to go forth with a plan if you know it will end in failure, only to then lose money on the back end of that, when you can instead make precautions to actually avoid taking that loss, and pass through the ESRB safely on the first time around.

How do you explain to marketing that you can't come up with a pre-order date, because your planning to fail your ESRB submission?
How do you explain to budgeting why you're purposefully throwing away time and money on futile endeavors?
You can't even start taking pre-orders or regular orders, because you can't set a date until you've successfully thrown thousands of dollars of employee time and money away failing your ESRB rating. You can't even set an estimated completed date, because until that's done, you don't know when you'll be finished.
And then after that pile of failure happens, now you need to get started on the changes you need to make to the game to pass submission.

weeabro wrote:I'm also quite curious how the ESRB wormed its way into every major retailer, and why those retailers actively enforce anti-consumer practices. If a retailer wants to deny sales to minors, wonderful, however refusing to carry unrated or AO games is going too far. In banning AO games from sale, they are effectively denying my right as an adult to enjoy whatever entertainment I choose, so long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of others.

The negative stigma of AO games really needs to come to an end, as does the 1990s mentality displayed by retailers and the ESRB.


This has nothing to do with the ESRB.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby dromans » Thu Jul 14, 2016 3:29 am

Prinny Supervisor wrote:
weeabro wrote:Meanwhile, Nathaniel Fury over at PQube is saying things like, "In terms of platform holders and ratings boards, you’d be surprised what you can get away with. Gal*Gun: Double Peace passed quite painlessly for example."


Now I'll say again, I'm just an editor, so I don't get to make the actual big decisions when it comes to what our company would or should do, but in my experience, yeah, getting GalGun and Valkyrie Drive passed without getting an AO rating would probably be pretty easy. If I were presented with either of those projects, I would argue with my superiors (if that conversation ever even came up, which it probably wouldn't) that changing any content would be totally inappropriate and unnecessary, given that there is next to zero risk of either of those games getting an AO. Even with Criminal Girls 2, I argued that we shouldn't change a thing (except of course terminology/sound edits that we had to make for the first game, for consistency). But I acknowledged that the game was indeed at risk of an AO, as substantiated with the conversations we had with the ESRB. I don't like it, and I still push for an "uncensored" Steam version whenever it comes up, but I completely understand why that decision was made by the company. It does make sense.

I'm at least happy to hear that. I really hope you guys consider an uncut version of CG on Steam. I think it's also for the best because people are getting angrier and angrier at censorship on the Steam forums and trust me it's not going to help, even less when Japanese customers learn the game is censored without being told beforehand. It's going to be a big explosion on both twitter and Steam forums for different reasons.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby DizzyQViper » Thu Jul 14, 2016 4:50 am

neonie wrote:That's kind of the problem the whole argument of people who say NISA should "Submit the game and get an AO rating to prove that it would."

It's a gigantic waste of not just NISA's, but everyone involved's time and money. It's also extremely irresponsible as a publisher to go forth with a plan if you know it will end in failure, only to then lose money on the back end of that, when you can instead make precautions to actually avoid taking that loss, and pass through the ESRB safely on the first time around.

How do you explain to marketing that you can't come up with a pre-order date, because your planning to fail your ESRB submission?
How do you explain to budgeting why you're purposefully throwing away time and money on futile endeavors?
You can't even start taking pre-orders or regular orders, because you can't set a date until you've successfully thrown thousands of dollars of employee time and money away failing your ESRB rating. You can't even set an estimated completed date, because until that's done, you don't know when you'll be finished.
And then after that pile of failure happens, now you need to get started on the changes you need to make to the game to pass submission.



For one we dont know if it will end in failure.
Second they dont have to submit the entire game to the ESRB for a rating but only a video with the highlights of the content so its not like NISA would have complete an entire uncensored build for submission and start from scratch in case on an AO rating.
They don't have to submit a copy of the final game until *after* its release to make sure they did not send in a bogus video.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/ ... is/c7muz23

How do you explain to your audience that your company does not like censorship when you censored 3 games in the past and are doing it yet again despite the backlash and to make matters worse, even refuse to undo the censorship of CG1 when its ported to PC, a platform that does not require a rating in the first place?

Actions speak louder than words.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby neonie » Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:22 am

DizzyQViper wrote:For one we dont know if it will end in failure.
Second they dont have to submit the entire game to the ESRB for a rating but only a video with the highlights of the content so its not like NISA would have complete an entire uncensored build for submission and start from scratch in case on an AO rating.
They don't have to submit a copy of the final game until *after* its release to make sure they did not send in a bogus video.


1. The pre-localization talks they have with the ESRB pretty much tell them it will, and what needs to be changed to keep that from happening. This is why I'm saying what you're suggesting is irresponsible.

2. As previous posts in this thread stated earlier, the ESRB process is not "send them a video, get a rating." It's an entire long, and arduous audit process. An audit process you're basically asking them to fail, because they know it would, because of the previously mentioned talks, and lose all of the time and money they spent going through this audit process, only to then have to make the edits anyway and go through the entire audit process again.

Honestly, there is probably some sort of fine or sanction in place to stop that very thing from happening, because it is very deliberately wasting a huge amount of time and money.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby DizzyQViper » Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:47 am

neonie wrote:
DizzyQViper wrote:For one we dont know if it will end in failure.
Second they dont have to submit the entire game to the ESRB for a rating but only a video with the highlights of the content so its not like NISA would have complete an entire uncensored build for submission and start from scratch in case on an AO rating.
They don't have to submit a copy of the final game until *after* its release to make sure they did not send in a bogus video.


1. The pre-localization talks they have with the ESRB pretty much tell them it will, and what needs to be changed to keep that from happening. This is why I'm saying what you're suggesting is irresponsible.

2. As previous posts in this thread stated earlier, the ESRB process is not "send them a video, get a rating." It's an entire long, and arduous audit process. An audit process you're basically asking them to fail, because they know it would, because of the previously mentioned talks, and lose all of the time and money they spent going through this audit process, only to then have to make the edits anyway and go through the entire audit process again.

Honestly, there is probably some sort of fine or sanction in place to stop that very thing from happening, because it is very deliberately wasting a huge amount of time and money.


1. No it tells them that there is a risk of an AO rating. And i don't see taking that risk as irresponsible in this case because they have a string of censored games haunting them. Especially in the current climate where some believe that artistic freedom in gaming is under siege after the DOAX3 incident.
Because of their past actions few people will believe their hand was forced without an actual AO rating to back it up. Now of course it is entirely up to NISA if they care if people believe them or not but i do think this will bite them in the ass somewhere down the line.

2. From the same AMA i linked:

how long does the rating process take ? and what are the steps involved

Generally about a week, because of the backlog of submissions. The process is usually:
1) Make sure the video of the gameplay actually works and is clear, etc.
2) Raters watch the video and come up with a "majority rules" rating.
3) That rating is evaluated to make sure it doesn't conflict with previous ratings for similar games.
4) The rating is issued.


And the only fine they could get from the ESRB is when they fail to submit a copy of the final game after its release to the ESRB or the content of the final game did not line up with the video. The guy even explains somewhere that its not uncommon that companies re-submit their game with tweaks to get the rating they want.

Anyway. We can discuss this topic to death but its probably to late for CG2 anyway. I just wanted to share my thoughts on the matter.

On the other hand its not too late for the PC port of CG1 and i do hope for their own sake they reconsider releasing the game in its censored state or i foresee the port getting ripped to shreds in the Steam reviews and a massive flame war on the Steam forum.


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