Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby razisgosu » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:27 pm

souledge94 wrote:Why did you guys skip out on dubbing again? Thats the main reason I skipped out on the first one and its happening again.


Cost vs return on investment probably.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Prinny Supervisor » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:27 pm

souledge94 wrote:Why did you guys skip out on dubbing again? Thats the main reason I skipped out on the first one and its happening again.


Being just the editor, I can't say for sure why not (that's a decision made well above my pay grade). If I had to guess, I would say that a tight working schedule and budget are too limited for an English dub for this project. Getting a full dub for an RPG like this would eat substantially into the budget.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby souledge94 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:33 pm

razisgosu wrote:
souledge94 wrote:Why did you guys skip out on dubbing again? Thats the main reason I skipped out on the first one and its happening again.


Cost vs return on investment probably.


Thought maybe since the LE sold out pretty fast that it probably did well enough to earn a dub a second time around. Guess that wasint the case.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby jb08045 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:43 pm

Prinny Supervisor wrote:Understand that these edits were done to bring the game down to an M (and equivalent) from an AO, not from an M to an M (but with less sexual content) or T.


How do you know the game was an AO and not an M if it wasn't sent in it's original form before the edit? Obvs the lolis are questionable but the rest doesn't seem any worst than any other M game consent or context wise.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby tsukikira » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:13 pm

I will also add that I am very disappointed by your decisions in way of censorship - the funny thing is, these things released on the Sony platform in Japan as they are, and you suggest that translating them would make them not shippable here in the US. I find that very, very amusing. Why bother bringing this series over at all, if you are just going to butcher them / water them down such that the real point of the plot is lost?

It's really unfortunate. No, really, it's really horrifying that you are even suggesting these things. These are the types of things done in localization that make me want a different company to translate the titles you are bringing over, so I can get something comparable to the original product. Not that I don't like the work you've done, but honestly, the censorship is ridiculous. I understand that changes being made are made for a reason, but these are a lot of changes, and fundamentally, it's definitely a enjoyment and anticipation reducer. Not that we didn't have issues with the first one, so the second one is bound to have the same issues.

This is the sort of thing that killed some of the early anime translation companies when anime translation in the US started to pick up popularity - please don't let it ultimately be your fate as well.
Last edited by tsukikira on Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Cael » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:18 pm

So why is NISA suddenly going on and on about consent in this game? The girls are prisoners in hell and they are being punished. Why would it suddenly need consent? Not to mention that these two seem to like it when they are punished: Obviously NSFW link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU7K_iDVg0g

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby The_Dood_Abides » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:18 pm

grgspunk, don't post in this thread again. Consider this your only warning.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Cael » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:31 pm

I'm sorry, but why did you delete his post? I'm genuinely curious.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby tsukikira » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:35 pm

Cael wrote:So why is NISA suddenly going on and on about consent in this game? The girls are prisoners in hell and they are being punished. Why would it suddenly need consent? Not to mention that these two seem to like it when they are punished: Obviously NSFW link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU7K_iDVg0g


Well, it's likely the ESRB that requires consent, which is to say a lot about the ratings boards that we get our games in America based on review from. And I'm certain they have a large variety of situations, of which they probably are representing the tamest forms.

I'm definitely glad that they decided to make the change list something up and front and center on the preorder pages and other processes - even if they have to change the game drastically to bring it here, at least this is not something I learned months after preordering or worse, having bought and found drastically changed.

I'm just really disappointed that there are so many changes that are needed to port the game over.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Battlechili » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:39 pm

I realize that this is my first post here, so I hope this doesn't weaken my statement or make my intentions seem suspicious, but I just wanted to say that as someone who's been very interested in the Criminal Girls games since the first localization, I am very disappointed with NISA with regards to the choices made for the localization of both games. I did not purchase Criminal Girls due to the censorship present in its Vita release, and have been currently waiting on the PC release in the hopes that that version is uncensored, as I truly would LOVE to purchase the games in English without any forms of censorship. I feel that game localizers should make their best effort at releasing games uncensored and as accurate as possible to the original language release, and by censoring it without even submitting an uncensored version to ESRB, I see that as NISA not doing all it can to do that. I realize submitting to ESRB can be expensive and time consuming, however I very much believe it would be worth it. At the very least I believe it would make many fans happier with the way this game is handled, and it would've been more respectful to the original developers' intentions to what they original envisioned the game to be.

In fact, that's part of my problem with this. It goes beyond my interest in Criminal girls being localized as accurately as possible, as I believe that censorship is harmful to the game industry. It sets a precedent for other companies to follow. One company when localizing can look at these releases and say "Well, they got away with doing this so I guess we can do this to this game as well". I feel it also deters content creators from trying to touch new ground or do what they want to do with their games, as they'll see censorship and realize that their vision may not be possible in the modern world, and thus they may make revisions watering down their vision for the sake of appeasing the censor. But beyond that, I believe that censorship is disrespectful to the original developers of these games, and it is disrespectful to fans of such games, many of which being people who keep a watchful eye on Japanese game releases, constantly hoping and asking publishers to publish such games. They were fans of the games as they were, and the product you're releasing is not what that game was. It also seems as if you're choosing what is okay and not okay for your fans, rather than letting them play these games and deciding how they feel about such content. As for the developers, it comes off as you watering down their product, as if you believe your vision of the game is better than the original developers' visions for the game. I realize you consulted the developers and recieved their help for some of the upcoming changes, but this game is still, at the end of the day, not the game they released in Japan. Your involvement is resulting in a different game than what they originally wanted to design and create, and this is upsetting. Statements like "Some of this could cause an issue with power distance, or perceived consent of the activities of the game. " further emphasize this. It would've been wonderful for people to be able to make such perceptions and come to their own conclusions themselves, and if the developers were indeed making it even slightly seem that such was nonconsensual or that the player had all the power, that should've been left alone. And even if it wasn't, different people can come to different conclusions on what it is. If such content was fine in Japan, it is entirely possible similar perceptions made be made by fans here. I feel that your changes show a genuine disrespect for the game, its fans, and its developers, and overall by releasing this game in a censored state, I believe you, NISA, are actively harming the game industry and making it worse overall, beyond this company's practices. I would hope that people do not purchase this product, and would even go so far as to actively encourage that people move on and ignore this product unless the game is released in an uncensored state. I appreciate that you bring games over to the West NISA, and I love that you're porting games to PC of late, but I cannot support censorship and I would hope that you reconsider your stance on the topic and do your best to release the game in its uncensored state. I especially would hope that in the future you make every attempt to release the game uncensored, even if that means making several submissions to ESRB.

Thank you for taking the time to read this if you do, and I apologize if I've broken any rules. I have no intention of coming off as rude or disrespectful. I just do not want to water down my feelings on the issue.

EDIT: Also, I noticed that in the artwork that you showed your changes for, ropes were removed. Isn't this game a bit...well, S&M oriented? Wouldn't removing the rope weaken the intention of what this game is trying to be?
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby The_Dood_Abides » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:59 pm

As a general heads-up to everyone: Given the sensitive nature of this topic, this thread is going to be much more diligently moderated than usual.

Regardless of how you may personally feel about our decision to censor Criminal Girls 2, everyone who posts in this thread is expected to be polite and respectful. Any excessively hostile or insulting posts made in this topic will be deleted, and the offending user will be asked not to post in this thread anymore as their one and only ban warning. If you can't share your thoughts like a civilized person, don't bother posting at all.

Thank you for taking the time to read this if you do, and I apologize if I've broken any rules. I have no intention of coming off as rude or disrespectful. I just do not want to water down my feelings on the issue.


Likewise, thank you for sharing your thoughts and concerns with us. I'd like to direct you to PS's most recent post, as his thoughts on this matter echo my own sentiments:

Prinny Supervisor wrote:The "censoring" of this game is in no way an attempt to "pander" or "market" to certain people. It is in no way a response to any anticipatory backlash by "feminists" or "SJWs". Understand that these edits were done to bring the game down to an M (and equivalent) from an AO, not from an M to an M (but with less sexual content) or T. We know what game we're making, y'all. It's from our parent company.

If this game required no edits whatsoever from the ESRB and was released with an M rating, I would love it. I would rejoice. All of the "SJWs" in the world could send me death threats over email, form a picket line outside the office, egg my house, set my car on fire, and write essays and give television interviews about how Criminal Girls 2 is the most abhorrent game ever made and no civilized person should ever play it and shame on everyone involved in its creation...and I would prefer it to having to deal with all of this "censorship" drama.

Don't ever, ever believe that we want to censor things.
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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Lord Gorchnik » Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:29 pm

Prinny Supervisor wrote:And as an additional note, something that I see going around a lot that I wish I could respond to directly, but will instead have to address here:

The "censoring" of this game is in no way an attempt to "pander" or "market" to certain people. It is in no way a response to any anticipatory backlash by "feminists" or "SJWs". Understand that these edits were done to bring the game down to an M (and equivalent) from an AO, not from an M to an M (but with less sexual content) or T. We know what game we're making, y'all. It's from our parent company.

If this game required no edits whatsoever from the ESRB and was released with an M rating, I would love it. I would rejoice. All of the "SJWs" in the world could send me death threats over email, form a picket line outside the office, egg my house, set my car on fire, and write essays and give television interviews about how Criminal Girls 2 is the most abhorrent game ever made and no civilized person should ever play it and shame on everyone involved in its creation...and I would prefer it to having to deal with all of this "censorship" drama.

Don't ever, ever believe that we want to censor things.


Great. Applaud the openness and appreciate it. It still doesn't change the fact that you are censoring content, and because of such I will not be purchasing this product. It's just that simple. Has nothing to do with SJWs or GG or anyone else who wants to start silly little Internet wars. I hope you all sell 400K copies and make mad bank off of your licensed work but at the end of the day I feel that NISA would do much better laying all the cards out on the table and letting US, the consumer decide what kind of media we should intake with everything intact. You know, like responsible adults should do.

Peace.

EDIT: I mean really? No voices in motivation scenes, redrawn art, terminology changes, power distance/perceived consent? In a game where it's sole selling point is sexual punishment? Come on NISA, if you truly believe the words you just spoke in that PR statement above none of these complaints would be happening right now. You type/say one thing but your finished product your trying to market clearly states another.

I feel like your target markets complaint's have always fallen on deaf ears as you've never listened to fan's requests in your past mess-ups and it appears you have no intention of starting now either.
Last edited by Lord Gorchnik on Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Darcnova » Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:37 pm

jb08045 wrote:
Prinny Supervisor wrote:Understand that these edits were done to bring the game down to an M (and equivalent) from an AO, not from an M to an M (but with less sexual content) or T.


How do you know the game was an AO and not an M if it wasn't sent in it's original form before the edit? Obvs the lolis are questionable but the rest doesn't seem any worst than any other M game consent or context wise.


It costs money to submit things to the ESRB, meaning not listening to advice and sending it anyways, only to have it returned, will cost NISA more.

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby neonie » Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:42 pm

Prinny Supervisor wrote:Being just the editor.


I think this answers the main question I had. If I remember correctly, you were the primary editor on the first game, as well (and, also if I remember correctly, these games only have one editor and one translator for the English text to begin with, to keep consistency in check.)

It makes sense you would be doing this, since going from the first to the second game also keeps consistency, but it's still good to know this is still the case (if it is.)

In the form of a question, baka!: P-Sup, you're the one turning the Japanese text into English for this game, is that right?

The only time I remember the text feeling off (or rather, felt like I might have been being told a different story than the Japanese version) involved Kisaragi and a wallet. That's a thing I would still love some answers on, as her arc felt like it stopped a bit short of going... To some darker places it than it could have. I would just like to know if the original game's text also stopped short of going there or if it was changed, and this seems like a good enough opportunity to ask. If you even still remember the details on that one (I'm actually a bit foggy on it, at this point, my self.)

In the form of a question, baka! #2: Where there any major changes to Kisaragi's arc, in the first game, specifically?

Spoiler:
I remember she wanted money. I think she had fake brand name items? But the "stopped short" I'm specifically thinking of was I expected it to maybe go into compensated dating or prostitution at some point, but it didn't. Sorry this is so vague. Again, details foggy.

As for the other changes, I'm not going to say I'm happy about it, but nor am I surprised. I figured as much would happen if the second game came over. Some of this series mechanically ultimately falls in a really odd middle ground between DLSite esq eroge mechanics and JRPG narrative driven story. It would have an easier time being one or the other, but it wants to be both, and that's a difficult problem to solve. (It's kind of like the To Love-Ru of videogames.)

This was a lot more text than I intended to type. Those pins and that cloth with the tiny chain-ball on it seem dope, though.
Last edited by neonie on Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Houk wrote:THE HYPOTHETICAL CENSORSHIP OF BABIES!

Spoiler:

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Re: Criminal Girls 2 is heading your way!

Postby Rednal » Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:43 pm

Battlechili wrote:I realize that this is my first post here, so I hope this doesn't weaken my statement or make my intentions seem suspicious, but I just wanted to say that as someone who's been very interested in the Criminal Girls games since the first localization, I am very disappointed with NISA with regards to the choices made for the localization of both games.


Welcome to the NISA forums, and thank you for being willing to share your thoughts. ^^ Here are mine in response. Spoiler'd for length!

Spoiler:
I did not purchase Criminal Girls due to the censorship present in its Vita release, and have been currently waiting on the PC release in the hopes that that version is uncensored, as I truly would LOVE to purchase the games in English without any forms of censorship.


I wouldn't expect this. Creating multiple versions of games is very expensive. Furthermore, if the content was changed, it would need to be re-rated. If they could have gotten away without the edits, I genuinely think they would have done so. Editing games is quite costly, and they try to avoid it as much as they can. (It literally makes more financial sense to minimize edits, rather than taking out things that don't need to be changed. And that's what happens.)

I feel that game localizers should make their best effort at releasing games uncensored and as accurate as possible to the original language release,


NISA does this. Believe it or not, they worked to minimize the changes within the first game. I know, because I played it, and it's actually not nearly as bad as people who've only seen stuff on the internet often seem to believe. It doesn't help that there are videos decrying "censorship" that only show the very beginning of the game, when stuff was fogged out even in the Japanese release.

and by censoring it without even submitting an uncensored version to ESRB, I see that as NISA not doing all it can to do that. I realize submitting to ESRB can be expensive and time consuming, however I very much believe it would be worth it. At the very least I believe it would make many fans happier with the way this game is handled, and it would've been more respectful to the original developers' intentions to what they original envisioned the game to be.


Submitting stuff to the ESRB is not merely expensive, it is prohibitively expensive if they have to do it more than once (also because they submit to MULTIPLE ratings boards around the world, and that really ups the cost). Their budget literally does not allow them to do this without compromising some other aspect of the game. Lots of people have raised this point, but it's essentially asking for NISA to spend a lot of money to get an answer they can get through another, far more affordable method. No, it's not the "official" review. But companies can and do talk to the ESRB to get an opinion (which is practically official anyway), and the ESRB itself says that companies know how they rate stuff and what's likely to be considered objectionable. I know, because I interviewed the ESRB on this subject myself. The interview is available right here.

I understand your feelings, I really do - but gaming companies are businesses, and they have to take these costs into consideration.

In fact, that's part of my problem with this. It goes beyond my interest in Criminal girls being localized as accurately as possible, as I believe that censorship is harmful to the game industry.


Companies self-censor stuff all the time, by the way. Many of them aim for a specific rating (in the case of games aimed towards kids), or just want to be sure they avoid the AO rating (in the case of games for older audiences). NISA is the latter. They are okay with basically any rating as long as they can publish it, because they know we don't care. They WANT us to decide for ourselves and enjoy what we like. However, if they can't publish the game, that is a HUGE problem and one they have to address no matter what. No publishing = no sales = no company = no job. It's kind of like how restaurants have to meet sanitation codes. Yes, their main thing is feeding you whatever you want to order, but they could get shut down if they're unsanitary while they're doing it. Sanitation is not optional for restaurants that want to keep operating, and for game companies, neither is avoiding the AO rating.

It sets a precedent for other companies to follow. One company when localizing can look at these releases and say "Well, they got away with doing this so I guess we can do this to this game as well". I feel it also deters content creators from trying to touch new ground or do what they want to do with their games, as they'll see censorship and realize that their vision may not be possible in the modern world, and thus they may make revisions watering down their vision for the sake of appeasing the censor.


I disagree on this point, mostly because I've watched games constantly push boundaries over the years. That's not going to stop. Most game creators are inherently creative people, and many are more than willing to test the limits. The thing is, that gets people used to such content, allowing even more "extreme" stuff to be made. Frankly, I think we're going in the opposite direction than you seem to believe - I think we're heading towards more openness. However, some games can be too much, too soon, and that tends to provoke a backlash. By toeing the line instead of jumping straight over it, we're actually more likely to need fewer edits in the future.

But beyond that, I believe that censorship is disrespectful to the original developers of these games,


The developers of these games are trying to make a living. Video games are artistic, but are not pure art. If you boycott games and refuse to buy them, their company doesn't make money and their livelihood is taken away. I think they would strongly prefer to get paid. Also, don't forget that games are usually created by large groups of people, each working on small parts.

and it is disrespectful to fans of such games, many of which being people who keep a watchful eye on Japanese game releases, constantly hoping and asking publishers to publish such games. They were fans of the games as they were, and the product you're releasing is not what that game was.


No, it's not. NISA is a localization company - they try to make the best product they can for the region it's being released in, NOT create a perfect port of a Japanese game. You are, of course, free to prefer the original Japanese version, and I will never say anything against that feeling. It's a valid feeling, and an important one to many people. However, the company is what it is - and that, in part, is what the original creators want. Remember, the original publisher keeps basically all of the rights for the game. Things only happen with their permission. The localized game you get is the game the original creators ultimately decided to offer you. They can say "no" at any time, and NISA would have to accept that.

It also seems as if you're choosing what is okay and not okay for your fans, rather than letting them play these games and deciding how they feel about such content. As for the developers, it comes off as you watering down their product, as if you believe your vision of the game is better than the original developers' visions for the game.


No. NISA is saying that they cannot legally publish games under certain circumstances, and they will modify games as much as necessary in order to allow them to be published. They're not being condescending - it's pretty much the only option their have.

I realize you consulted the developers and recieved their help for some of the upcoming changes, but this game is still, at the end of the day, not the game they released in Japan.


And the developers are fine with that.

Your involvement is resulting in a different game than what they originally wanted to design and create, and this is upsetting.


It may be upsetting to you, but remember, NISA has been publishing their games in the rest of the world for quite a few years now. They expect titles to need some degree of editing when they're being localized outside of Japan. It's not like this is a surprise, and indeed, they probably created some parts for Japan knowing full well they might need to change them for other areas. This isn't ripping pages out of a textbook to censor ideas, or splashing black paint over a canvas to hide what's underneath. In many cases, the edits are made because the creators accept the need for the edits, and are in fact quite willing to make them.

Statements like "Some of this could cause an issue with power distance, or perceived consent of the activities of the game. " further emphasize this. It would've been wonderful for people to be able to make such perceptions and come to their own conclusions themselves, and if the developers were indeed making it even slightly seem that such was nonconsensual or that the player had all the power, that should've been left alone.


Indeed, we like to be treated like adults. Unfortunately, some content just can't be published without changes.

And even if it wasn't, different people can come to different conclusions on what it is. If such content was fine in Japan, it is entirely possible similar perceptions made be made by fans here. I feel that your changes show a genuine disrespect for the game, its fans, and its developers, and overall by releasing this game in a censored state, I believe you, NISA, are actively harming the game industry and making it worse overall, beyond this company's practices. I would hope that people do not purchase this product, and would even go so far as to actively encourage that people move on and ignore this product unless the game is released in an uncensored state.


My reasons for disagreeing with these feelings are explained in detail above. To recap, however, I believe the opposite - that buying the edited games actually supports the company, encourages them to continue pushing boundaries, and will ultimately result in games not needing to be edited at all. I also believe that your views, though you clearly mean well for the industry, are actually more likely to hurt it than help it.

I appreciate that you bring games over to the West NISA, and I love that you're porting games to PC of late, but I cannot support censorship and I would hope that you reconsider your stance on the topic and do your best to release the game in its uncensored state. I especially would hope that in the future you make every attempt to release the game uncensored, even if that means making several submissions to ESRB.


I'm pretty sure they do try to avoid making edits to games whenever they can. They know many fans don't like it. They don't like it, either. Editing games is expensive, and a lot of work for people on both sides of the ocean. The fewer edits they need to make, the better for them. That's why their edits actually tend to be minimalistic. This topic tends to generate a lot of heated feelings, so... how about this.

I think you should buy a used copy of Criminal Girls 1, and play it. NISA will not receive any of your money if you do this, and so you'll be able to actually experience the end result of their editing choices without supporting them, per se. Take a careful look at things throughout the game (including extras, like the Gallery), and form a final opinion only after you've actually played it. I think you may find that it's not nearly as bad as you currently seem to believe it is.
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