Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby vampko » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:20 pm

17thColossi wrote:
Neuts wrote:It would be pretty swell if N-1 implemented some form of online match between armies formed of pre-made, hopefully balanced characters. They would, of course, have to disable lift & throw, and maybe make some changes to the damage formula (or maybe not, depending on how much skills are levelled on the premade characters).

But then again, Japanese developers aren't quite known for being attentive to their players, to balance, and to the concept of user input in general (regarding custom maps).


What's the point then? If you are going to disable the things that make Disgaea unique (damage formula, unique units, lift&throw), why even do it then?

This would just be incredibly boring.

Agreed.
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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby Neuts » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:24 pm

I mean changing it in some way so that special attacks don't one-shot everything. It would turn matches into coward contests where both teams hang outside the other's attack range and wait for the other to make a mistake. Also, implementing power balances between the different weapons would be great, because I honestly don't see how a melee team can beat a team of gunner ninjas or something.

That said, I have no idea what you were trying to say. Can you be more clear?

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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby japangator » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:29 pm

Neuts wrote:I mean changing it in some way so that special attacks don't one-shot everything. It would turn matches into coward contests where both teams hang outside the other's attack range and wait for the other to make a mistake. Also, implementing power balances between the different weapons would be great, because I honestly don't see how a melee team can beat a team of gunner ninjas or something.

That said, I have no idea what you were trying to say. Can you be more clear?

Well I don't know how I can be more clear than I usually am. :|

You already said some of the stuff I thought already about the handicap.

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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby 17thColossi » Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:42 pm

Neuts wrote:
17thColossi wrote:What's the point then? If you are going to disable the things that make Disgaea unique (damage formula, unique units, lift&throw), why even do it then?

This would just be incredibly boring.


I would enjoy it, and "it makes the game unique" is not a very good point in support of these mechanics. This would be useful given that these mechanics would flatly unbalance multiplayer games; lift & throw, especially, would make fights a joke.


Okay. So remove lift&throw. how do you know you are playing a Disgaea game? Lift&throw is what sets Disgaea apart from other SRPGs. Take it away, you might as well play Final Fantasy Tactics, Luminous Arc, Agarest War, etc.

Just because you would enjoy it, doesn't make it a good idea. We've already discussed the issues with making an SRPG online and why it just doesn't work. You can't just get rid of basic things, like lift&throw, to balance the online. What's the point? You would just be playing chess. There is no way to balance it without making it either: 1. Incredibly boring or 2. So completely different, fans don't want to play it.

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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby japangator » Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:57 pm

17thColossi wrote:
Neuts wrote:
17thColossi wrote:What's the point then? If you are going to disable the things that make Disgaea unique (damage formula, unique units, lift&throw), why even do it then?

This would just be incredibly boring.


I would enjoy it, and "it makes the game unique" is not a very good point in support of these mechanics. This would be useful given that these mechanics would flatly unbalance multiplayer games; lift & throw, especially, would make fights a joke.


Okay. So remove lift&throw. how do you know you are playing a Disgaea game? Lift&throw is what sets Disgaea apart from other SRPGs. Take it away, you might as well play Final Fantasy Tactics, Luminous Arc, Agarest War, etc.

Just because you would enjoy it, doesn't make it a good idea. We've already discussed the issues with making an SRPG online and why it just doesn't work. You can't just get rid of basic things, like lift&throw, to balance the online. What's the point? You would just be playing chess. There is no way to balance it without making it either: 1. Incredibly boring or 2. So completely different, fans don't want to play it.

Yeah and right now NIS is really on a tight budget right now so they would stick to their traditional gameplay if it means for them get out of their recession which is exactly why they're making Disgaea 4. If there's anything we can get out of online play for Disgaea it's gotta be something that doesn't involve Player vs. Player battle.

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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby Neuts » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:15 pm

17thColossi wrote:Okay. So remove lift&throw. how do you know you are playing a Disgaea game? Lift&throw is what sets Disgaea apart from other SRPGs. Take it away, you might as well play Final Fantasy Tactics, Luminous Arc, Agarest War, etc.

Just because you would enjoy it, doesn't make it a good idea. We've already discussed the issues with making an SRPG online and why it just doesn't work. You can't just get rid of basic things, like lift&throw, to balance the online. What's the point? You would just be playing chess. There is no way to balance it without making it either: 1. Incredibly boring or 2. So completely different, fans don't want to play it.


I think the main lesson to take from this argument is that, well, maybe Disgaea isn't very different from other SRPGs! Does that make it bad? Again, you don't bother to make a very good point supporting your idea (I suppose) that setting Disgaea apart, regardless of how you do it, is a good thing. Lifting and throwing is an unbalanced mechanic which has no place in competitive play.

I think what makes something a good idea is the measure of people who like it, so yes, my liking it contributes to it being a good idea. Online play is a trend that grew immensely over the last decade, and I think it's time Japan jumped into it, too.

What do you mean, I'd be playing chess? Do you know how chess plays?

To the guy who noted NIS' financial problems: Did you ask yourself that maybe following the same formula for three consecutive games (and slightly modifying it for three different games) was the catalyst for those troubles? That maybe it's time to try something new?

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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby Shizuka » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:26 pm

I said chess in a post earlier in this topic. And yes, it will come off as a cute animated chess, but no less than chess.

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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby Neuts » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:31 pm

Shizuka wrote:I said chess in a post earlier in this topic. And yes, it will come off as a cute animated chess, but no less than chess.


citation needed

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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby Shizuka » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:33 pm

Neuts wrote:
Shizuka wrote:I said chess in a post earlier in this topic. And yes, it will come off as a cute animated chess, but no less than chess.


citation needed

Of what?

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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby japangator » Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:53 pm

Neuts wrote:To the guy who noted NIS' financial problems: Did you ask yourself that maybe following the same formula for three consecutive games (and slightly modifying it for three different games) was the catalyst for those troubles? That maybe it's time to try something new?

Maybe, but multiplayer isn't agreeing very well for some fans. Maybe there could be something else they could put into the game we all might like like the map editor I mentioned earlier (even though that's an expensive feature). Sometime sticking with the same formula is the best formula. For NIS it's all about playing their cards right.

Plus, the most poular games in their company is Disgaea so there's very little chance for Disgaea to be the cause of the issue.

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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby Neuts » Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:44 pm

Shizuka wrote:Of what?


I muddled my point a bit for humor. When you make a claim, you're supposed to follow it up with explanations. Tell us why it's true. If you try that, you get "well they're both on a grid, and uh, they're both turn based and there are units you control!" It's ridiculous. A modified version of disgaea 3 that is balanced in competitive play is not remotely close to chess.

To the guy above: I'm not clear on how the PS3 works, but it would probably be possible to just create a development tool and to let us distribute maps around the internet ourselves by transferring them to and from a USB drive. Again, I'm not sure it would work, but it wouldn't cost NIS a cent (well, other than whatever it costs to add the tool into the game, I guess).

edit: but I'd like to reiterate that Japan seems particularly contemptuous of user-generated content, so the likelihood of this happening are slim to none. It's likely NIS will make D4 the same way they made 2 and 3 - Disgaea with minor improvements and more timesinks - and then go under. It's a shame; I actually like the games, although I frankly preferred the spinoffs (Especially Soul Nomad).

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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby 17thColossi » Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:52 pm

Neuts wrote:
17thColossi wrote:Okay. So remove lift&throw. how do you know you are playing a Disgaea game? Lift&throw is what sets Disgaea apart from other SRPGs. Take it away, you might as well play Final Fantasy Tactics, Luminous Arc, Agarest War, etc.

Just because you would enjoy it, doesn't make it a good idea. We've already discussed the issues with making an SRPG online and why it just doesn't work. You can't just get rid of basic things, like lift&throw, to balance the online. What's the point? You would just be playing chess. There is no way to balance it without making it either: 1. Incredibly boring or 2. So completely different, fans don't want to play it.


I think the main lesson to take from this argument is that, well, maybe Disgaea isn't very different from other SRPGs! Does that make it bad? Again, you don't bother to make a very good point supporting your idea (I suppose) that setting Disgaea apart, regardless of how you do it, is a good thing. Lifting and throwing is an unbalanced mechanic which has no place in competitive play.

I think what makes something a good idea is the measure of people who like it, so yes, my liking it contributes to it being a good idea. Online play is a trend that grew immensely over the last decade, and I think it's time Japan jumped into it, too.

What do you mean, I'd be playing chess? Do you know how chess plays?

To the guy who noted NIS' financial problems: Did you ask yourself that maybe following the same formula for three consecutive games (and slightly modifying it for three different games) was the catalyst for those troubles? That maybe it's time to try something new?


Yes. Lifting and throwing would make it very unbalanced. What do you do? Take out lifting and throwing and add multiplayer? Lifting and throwing isn't the only thing that makes online multiplayer for a SRPG difficult. It would be dreadfully boring to just have an online map where players use the same unit, no special attacks are allowed, and you can't move your units with lift and throw. That is the only way to keep it balanced...to give everybody the same vanilla units, with no frills, no excitement.

Secondly, Japan and most of Asia has been doing online games LONG before the US. They don't need to jump into it, they were already in it. The problem is, there has not been a single company that has gotten multiplayer (offline or online) for a SRPG correct. There hasn't been a single game that has it balanced enough to be fun.

Yes. I know how to play chess. The way you described the online, is essentially digital chess. You don't have specials, you can't move the unit more than it's designed to. It's chess.

No. Just because you think it's a good idea, does not mean it's a good idea. There are a lot more fans that would not buy the next Disgaea game if they added what you proposed. You have to realize that NIS is a company and they want to make money. They would be terribly dumb for releasing something that will make the majority of their fanbase angry.

The last part, about releasing the same game with just some additional features is bad. I'm going to point you at Nintendo. They have been releasing the same Mario adventure for decades now...and you know what. It's still fun. NIS has a good formula for SRPGs. Why tinker with it if it sells? Sure, people will complain about the lack of innovation. But you know what, innovation isn't always good.

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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby Shizuka » Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:55 pm

Neuts wrote:
Shizuka wrote:Of what?


I muddled my point a bit for humor. When you make a claim, you're supposed to follow it up with explanations. Tell us why it's true. If you try that, you get "well they're both on a grid, and uh, they're both turn based and there are units you control!" It's ridiculous. A modified version of disgaea 3 that is balanced in competitive play is not remotely close to chess.

To the guy above: I'm not clear on how the PS3 works, but it would probably be possible to just create a development tool and to let us distribute maps around the internet ourselves by transferring them to and from a USB drive. Again, I'm not sure it would work, but it wouldn't cost NIS a cent (well, other than whatever it costs to add the tool into the game, I guess).

edit: but I'd like to reiterate that Japan seems particularly contemptuous of user-generated content, so the likelihood of this happening are slim to none. It's likely NIS will make D4 the same way they made 2 and 3 - Disgaea with minor improvements and more timesinks - and then go under. It's a shame; I actually like the games, although I frankly preferred the spinoffs (Especially Soul Nomad).

Well, I believe I owed an explanation after all. Chess is a game where you have two players battling for whoever gets as much pieces of the other player (or check-mate). Each player's round is timed, and the player has to make a move in this specific time. Every piece you have it's singularities, and they all complement each other for the purpose of winning the game.

Let's go over at what I've said in this topic:

* If this is online, no player can have a team WAY better than the other, so that kind of ruins the whole thing. You'ld have to make a mode that is challenging for new players but also giving them real chance of winning.
* A online game needs online gamers. What has happened in this latest generation is the flood of online games. There are so many games that when online gets boring or outdated, gamers stop and find other things to play. I'll use Band Hero as an example, as it is a kinda recent game. The online mode is simply DESERT. No one plays that anymore, and the game is not bad and not even one year old.
*You'ld need an infrastructure for the online mode, as this is not some DLC you can offer and forget that it exists. It'ld need a repetitive care, and anything could go wrong with a company starting with online games.
*Disgaea matches are long. Real long. But the length is up to you, as you have your time to plan freely your next move, as the AI instantly moves the enemies around the board. An online mode wouldn't give players enough time to plan carefully their next move, once the intricacies would be infinite, not as chess that have the same pieces all matches, for both players. A perfect set amout of time for the player to make a move wouldn't exist, because or it would be too short fot hem to think, or too long to bore the other player to death. And I'm not even talking about those players that would just run the entire match.

Disgaea Online has EVERYTHING to go wrong, unless it was another genre other than strategy as it is exactly now.

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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby Neuts » Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:06 pm

^^^^ The financial point is the most compelling I've heard. I doubt either NIS or NISA have the resources to maintain a server. I disagree with your other point about thinking time, because I don't think Disgaea is a complex enough game to warrant more than a minute of thought a turn. No matter how you look at it, its metagame is "smash shit before shit can smash you." You know exactly what the other guy is going to do with his fighter. You know exactly how he'll play with his gunner and healer. This is not true in chess, which has many more units, is much more confined, and has many more uses for each piece. In disgaea, you don't need to sacrifice nigh-useless fighters to protect your samurai, for example.

Now, to answer the other guy (17th)

paragraph 1: why do you make the assumption that removing the L&T in multi-player would mean removing it in single-player? It's a pretty stupid thing to think, no? It's the reason i said "disable L&T in online play" the first time I posted about it. Reading comprehension is important. I never suggested we should remove special attacks (only change their damage formula from D3's), and I never suggested we give both teams the same units, but rather let them form an army from a selection of premades. You need to start actually reading what I write instead of building strawmen everywhere.

paragraph 2: this is a stupid argument line to take that is completely unrelated to the argument, so how about this: show me a japanese game that was primarily played online that came before Starcraft and I'll concede. As for your second point, I'm not sure what you mean by "correct." I had a lot of fun playing multi-player War of the Lions with my friends, although we had to impose rules to write out the completely broken stuff (Sunken State, Math skills, female-only items, etc etc) so that it would work and we'd have a fun time. This is what I'm suggesting we try with Disgaea. Why are you reacting to these suggestions so strongly?

paragraph 3: just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true. Tell me how exactly my suggestions would lead to something resembling chess. To add to that, what exactly do you have against chess?

paragraph 4: If there are indeed a lot of fans who would not buy the game because NIS tacked a multi-player, which it tried to balance, without impacting the single-player, then I think the problem is the fans, not NIS or the multi-player idea. What exactly do you base this assumption on, anyway? It sounds mind-boggingly nonsensical.

I never said it was "bad." I just postulated that maybe it didn't attract enough people to keep them in business (considering they are having financial troubles), and that innovating would be the way to get them out of the water? Nintendo games appeal to an incredibly wide audience, and Nintendo is turning a profit. Your argument works for them, but not for a company that is allegedly going under.

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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby vampko » Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:09 pm

Shizuka wrote:
Neuts wrote:
Shizuka wrote:Of what?


I muddled my point a bit for humor. When you make a claim, you're supposed to follow it up with explanations. Tell us why it's true. If you try that, you get "well they're both on a grid, and uh, they're both turn based and there are units you control!" It's ridiculous. A modified version of disgaea 3 that is balanced in competitive play is not remotely close to chess.

To the guy above: I'm not clear on how the PS3 works, but it would probably be possible to just create a development tool and to let us distribute maps around the internet ourselves by transferring them to and from a USB drive. Again, I'm not sure it would work, but it wouldn't cost NIS a cent (well, other than whatever it costs to add the tool into the game, I guess).

edit: but I'd like to reiterate that Japan seems particularly contemptuous of user-generated content, so the likelihood of this happening are slim to none. It's likely NIS will make D4 the same way they made 2 and 3 - Disgaea with minor improvements and more timesinks - and then go under. It's a shame; I actually like the games, although I frankly preferred the spinoffs (Especially Soul Nomad).

Well, I believe I owed an explanation after all. Chess is a game where you have two players battling for whoever gets as much pieces of the other player (or check-mate). Each player's round is timed, and the player has to make a move in this specific time. Every piece you have it's singularities, and they all complement each other for the purpose of winning the game.

Let's go over at what I've said in this topic:

* If this is online, no player can have a team WAY better than the other, so that kind of ruins the whole thing. You'ld have to make a mode that is challenging for new players but also giving them real chance of winning.
* A online game needs online gamers. What has happened in this latest generation is the flood of online games. There are so many games that when online gets boring or outdated, gamers stop and find other things to play. I'll use Band Hero as an example, as it is a kinda recent game. The online mode is simply DESERT. No one plays that anymore, and the game is not bad and not even one year old.
*You'ld need an infrastructure for the online mode, as this is not some DLC you can offer and forget that it exists. It'ld need a repetitive care, and anything could go wrong with a company starting with online games.
*Disgaea matches are long. Real long. But the length is up to you, as you have your time to plan freely your next move, as the AI instantly moves the enemies around the board. An online mode wouldn't give players enough time to plan carefully their next move, once the intricacies would be infinite, not as chess that have the same pieces all matches, for both players. A perfect set amout of time for the player to make a move wouldn't exist, because or it would be too short fot hem to think, or too long to bore the other player to death. And I'm not even talking about those players that would just run the entire match.

Disgaea Online has EVERYTHING to go wrong, unless it was another genre other than strategy as it is exactly now.

Well put. Disgaea, as it is, would be horrible as an online game.

As for NIS's recent financial stress, I'm guessing it has something to do with them porting Phantom Brave to the PSP as one of their major projects >.> Their Disgaea games have always been a great hit and the fans love them. The side games haven't had the same consistent success story.
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