Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby 17thColossi » Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:52 pm

Actually, the financial issues were because of the Last Rebellion game being a terrible flop. Well at least that is the rumor.

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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby vampko » Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:55 pm

17thColossi wrote:Actually, the financial issues were because of the Last Rebellion game being a terrible flop. Well at least that is the rumor.

I was just referring in general to the games they supported which weren't disgaea titles or even spin-offs, that and the lackluster business practice of porting a game so many times. Look what porting like that has done to the Tales studio?
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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby 17thColossi » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:08 pm

No. Tales studio is having an issue with the fact that Namco Bandai seems to think that the US is a terrible market AND the porting things.

Still, NIS has the right idea. No more ports for the US, more original games.

Well, I think we've covered pretty much everything about this issue now. We've heard some good ideas, some good reasons why it could and could not work.

Whatever NIS decided to do with Disgaea series, I'll be there to support them. They hooked me and now I support pretty much everything they do now.

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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby Rhuen » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:07 pm

I thought of "different" online modes.

(all out battles) anything goes matches: experts only, with plenty of time to burn.

(level limited) only characters between certain levels can challenge each other here.

(small team) each person can only use five characters at the most.

(time limited matches) variations of the three above with different time limits, either for each to make a turn, or for the match as a whole with the person left with the highest HP *of characters on the field* ends up winning if time runs out (kind of like how fighters do it).

(Challenge) You make your own fields and set them up with monsters/characters of various levels *difficult sets the combined total level of everyone on the board* like points to spend for the different level fields, these monsters are won/purchased and their levels can't be adjusted *so no gaining* like "doll" units I suppose.
Its a concept simular to Little Big Planet, or more retro like Wreking Crew, you would set up the stage, set up the traps, set up the obstacles, and place the various monsters you couldn't use otherwise at different points of the field.

This last one is the one I imagine being the easiest and most effective for an online mode for Disgaea, you set up fields, you can invite friends to try them online.

I do have one other mode, but...its best called "CRAZY MODE"

up to four different players, each with no limitations on level or perhaps even number of units can take to a MASSIVE FIELD, to battle one another (War mode) would be another name. Problem is if you have four people, each allowed to use 250 *not a good number, I'd say at most 30 would be at least more feasable* on this massive field and each has to worry about three other players. It would take a "long" time to play and be insane *a timer would have to be put into place on deciding moves for each character* but then again Chess for pros has a time limit on deciding your next move too. You might not get the time to think it over for too long, but you really shouldn't have too, and being idle too long equals forfeit *in case someone stops playing*
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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby vampko » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:42 pm

Neuts wrote:^^^^ The financial point is the most compelling I've heard. I doubt either NIS or NISA have the resources to maintain a server. I disagree with your other point about thinking time, because I don't think Disgaea is a complex enough game to warrant more than a minute of thought a turn. No matter how you look at it, its metagame is "smash shit before shit can smash you." You know exactly what the other guy is going to do with his fighter. You know exactly how he'll play with his gunner and healer. This is not true in chess, which has many more units, is much more confined, and has many more uses for each piece. In disgaea, you don't need to sacrifice nigh-useless fighters to protect your samurai, for example.

I don't believe you've had the experience of watching many other people play disgaea. I, for one, like to take my time on planning what I am going to do. Also, it is one of my main strategies to use weaker units to defend the stronger more important ones. I send peons in front of my generals ALL THE TIME. I can also say, that you would probably never expect what I was going to do next. Everyone plays Disgaea differently.
Neuts wrote:Now, to answer the other guy (17th)

paragraph 1: why do you make the assumption that removing the L&T in multi-player would mean removing it in single-player? It's a pretty stupid thing to think, no? It's the reason i said "disable L&T in online play" the first time I posted about it. Reading comprehension is important. I never suggested we should remove special attacks (only change their damage formula from D3's), and I never suggested we give both teams the same units, but rather let them form an army from a selection of premades. You need to start actually reading what I write instead of building strawmen everywhere.

That would require quite a bit of reworking formulas, if you wanted every move to be nerfed/upgraded to fit online play better. Forming an army from a selection of pre-mades could work, but I would hate it. I worked hard to get my characters where they are (I don't use the silly 30 second 9999 trick, and will never use something like it), and I wouldn't want to use any other units. Plus, call me strange, but I make up stories with my units and relationships between them.
Neuts wrote:paragraph 2: this is a stupid argument line to take that is completely unrelated to the argument, so how about this: show me a japanese game that was primarily played online that came before Starcraft and I'll concede. As for your second point, I'm not sure what you mean by "correct." I had a lot of fun playing multi-player War of the Lions with my friends, although we had to impose rules to write out the completely broken stuff (Sunken State, Math skills, female-only items, etc etc) so that it would work and we'd have a fun time. This is what I'm suggesting we try with Disgaea. Why are you reacting to these suggestions so strongly?

paragraph 3: just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true. Tell me how exactly my suggestions would lead to something resembling chess. To add to that, what exactly do you have against chess?

I don't really follow paragraph 2, but in response to paragraph 3:
How it would resemble chess....you have preset units, against someone else who has preset units. All of their abilities have been nerfed/upgraded to be 'balanced'. Now, these two very similar armies are pitted against each other. Each player takes their turn moving a unit, then the other player takes their turn. These turns are timed. The goal is to take down the other player's units before your own get taken down.
You have to admit, that does sound pretty close to chess. Not exactly the same, but there are quite a bit of similarities.
Neuts wrote:paragraph 4: If there are indeed a lot of fans who would not buy the game because NIS tacked a multi-player, which it tried to balance, without impacting the single-player, then I think the problem is the fans, not NIS or the multi-player idea. What exactly do you base this assumption on, anyway? It sounds mind-boggingly nonsensical.

I never said it was "bad." I just postulated that maybe it didn't attract enough people to keep them in business (considering they are having financial troubles), and that innovating would be the way to get them out of the water? Nintendo games appeal to an incredibly wide audience, and Nintendo is turning a profit. Your argument works for them, but not for a company that is allegedly going under.


Paragraph 4 : You are assuming that they could balance this, when it has been seen time and time again, that adding online to a game that wasn't meant to be online has more than often proved to hinder the single-player gameplay. Even just adding online to a game that has a single-player mode can prove to bring about problems. Yes, it CAN be successful, but very few have succeeded in balancing the two well.

I can't even follow how that last statement makes sense. You're saying that telling Nintendo not to do something that appeals to everyone would help them to appeal to everyone? I may be misunderstanding your closing statement, and I apologize if I did.

In summation, online would be resources spent on something that could have been spent on improving the single player experience.
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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby Arson » Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:41 pm

SRPGs just aren't the type of games for online play, honestly. I could see them making a map editor like mentioned above, although they'd have to make it so that you didn't gain any items or EXP.

I hold the opinion of focusing more on the single player for now. I can't really say what hasn't been said already.

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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby Rhuen » Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:49 am

online play (although I hear Disgaea 3 already has that in Japan) but not an Online community play

*make your own netherworld (or) hero base

*customize your own Overlord (or) hero

*make your own maps to challenge friends

*special event tropies, like have your *character* and team face the story and hidden map character challenges of past games (such as win a Paper-tropy Tink trophy for replaying the Disgaea 2 battle against Tink all the way up the PLatinum tropies for beating 9999 level Baal)

*Use your Overlord (or) hero as your avatar on the forums.

*I hear the D3 online play as levels for online matches, you could go further *humanoids only*, *monsters only*, one on one (overlord vs overlord, hero vs hero, overlord vs hero).

there are possibilities for online play beyond just two armies on a map.
Last edited by Rhuen on Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby japangator » Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:28 pm

Customization is fine and all but I would really prefer not to have it for the risk of making messy complicated menus. I'm just fine with evility customization for now.

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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby Rhuen » Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:13 pm

japangator wrote:Customization is fine and all but I would really prefer not to have it for the risk of making messy complicated menus. I'm just fine with evility customization for now.


Honestly I think the evility thing needs changed up a bit.

for one some skills and abilities, as well as ranges (especially for spells), should all come via leveling up (it was the whole point in stat levels for moves and weapons).

but a *training* mode to pay to get humanoids and monsters to learn moves they wouldn't have had normally (limited in amount) would be great.

In Phantom Brave we have fussion to aquire odd moves, evility is even more limited, so given NIS's tendency to test new mechanics I'd say they should try the trainer idea and leave normal moves for weapons and level ups for characters as leveled up to gain and only have to pay out for actual extra moves.

Like teaching a Dragon "Shield, or Braveheart" or perhaps moves from past games (or alternate ranges)

but I'll pick this up in (wants for Disgaea 4).
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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby vampko » Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:59 pm

Rhuen wrote:
japangator wrote:Customization is fine and all but I would really prefer not to have it for the risk of making messy complicated menus. I'm just fine with evility customization for now.


Honestly I think the evility thing needs changed up a bit.

for one some skills and abilities, as well as ranges (especially for spells), should all come via leveling up (it was the whole point in stat levels for moves and weapons).

but a *training* mode to pay to get humanoids and monsters to learn moves they wouldn't have had normally (limited in amount) would be great.

In Phantom Brave we have fussion to aquire odd moves, evility is even more limited, so given NIS's tendency to test new mechanics I'd say they should try the trainer idea and leave normal moves for weapons and level ups for characters as leveled up to gain and only have to pay out for actual extra moves.

Like teaching a Dragon "Shield, or Braveheart" or perhaps moves from past games (or alternate ranges)

but I'll pick this up in (wants for Disgaea 4).

I really liked the teacher/student system of the first Disgaea. I thought that was the best way to learn new moves that you didn't normally get.
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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby Frugivore » Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:36 am

I think it would actually work if you have matchmaking servers. For example, like on the FPS games such as Halo, they place you in the same groups with equal levels to keep it balanced. It wouldn't make sense if a level 30 player goes up against a level 883923 player.

Also, look at Schmid Diva. It's a form of SRPG ONLINE made in Korea. It's identical to Culdcept, which is another game for the PS2 that supports 2-4 players off-line. So, I think it can work. Anything is possible.

Edit: Oh, yeah, I forgot that they DO have Culdcept Saga for the Xbox 360 that supports multiplayer online.

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Re: Why do people want online for Disgaea so badly?

Postby vampko » Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:03 am

Frugivore wrote:I think it would actually work if you have matchmaking servers. For example, like on the FPS games such as Halo, they place you in the same groups with equal levels to keep it balanced. It wouldn't make sense if a level 30 player goes up against a level 883923 player.

Also, look at Schmid Diva. It's a form of SRPG ONLINE made in Korea. It's identical to Culdcept, which is another game for the PS2 that supports 2-4 players off-line. So, I think it can work. Anything is possible.

Edit: Oh, yeah, I forgot that they DO have Culdcept Saga for the Xbox 360 that supports multiplayer online.

You forget about equipment levels, resident levels, and various other things that can seriously imbalance it.

I never really liked competitive online in RPG's in general, cause I always seem to fall behind everyone else. Co-op is a great idea that I wish would be supported more.
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