Do you think Ar Tonelico 3 will get localized?

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Re: Do you think Ar Tonelico 3 will get localized?

Postby magusgs » Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:00 pm

There's very little chance this game will get an M rating.
1) The content doesn't warrant it.
2) NISA will do everything in their power to avoid an M rating.

Ar Tonelico is not meant to be a realistic game. It's meant to be an *anime* game. A cartoon. A fictional portrayal of a world that only vaguely reflects our own. Objectification of women? Psh. They're cartoons. Any teen should be able to figure out that real people don't act like that. Because real people suck. As for the sexual overtones, AT2 managed to get away with it. While I haven't played it, I imagine the main difference in AT3 is simply the 3D stripping. This is easily censorable if necessary (just throw an overlay on the stripped character model, e.g., overclothes).

Which brings me to my next point--NISA will not allow this game to be rated M. Their other games are T. Their audience includes teens. This game's target audience includes teens. NISA has every incentive to keep the T rating. An M rating based on sexual "cartoon" themes will not be good for business. Agarest War might've attracted a cult following with the crazy sexualized advertising, but in the end the game was rated Teen.

Finally, it's silly to expect NISA to bend over backwards to please the demands of every single fan. They'll do what they can to please as many customers as possible, as economically as possible. They're not going to make 2 versions of the game itself for the same console (LE is just a change in packaging), for the reason Solice described.
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Re: Do you think Ar Tonelico 3 will get localized?

Postby aquagon » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:57 pm

Ash wrote:I could see people getting grilled for the sexual content in this game, though. And not only does AT3 objectify women, it gives them stereotyped personalities of what women "ought" to be. With the possible exception of Cocona, there are absolutely no strong women in AT3.


So convenient to forget that the setting is a Reyvateil-ruled country (Reyvateils=Females only) and the existences of Tilia, Mute, Akane and Harvestasya for the sake of giving strength to your argument.

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Re: Do you think Ar Tonelico 3 will get localized?

Postby prinny's sidekick » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:54 am

otakuxgamer has an interview with the localization coordinator. it has a few more tidbits about the localization -

http://otakuxgamer.com/story/7738

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Re: Do you think Ar Tonelico 3 will get localized?

Postby robeduriv » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:56 am

Exactly magusgs, the content will most likely be heavily edited and dialogue will be removed again if NISA has the intention of maintaining AT3 with a T rating leading to us getting another(no offense but true) half-assed Ar Tonelico game not only next year but in the future if nothing is done. However I don't blame NISA entirely for the many mistakes that happened with AT2 because they don't have a large staff compared to others such as Square-Enix and not enough feedback was given to them from the consumers who purchased the first title.

As for the idea that NISA will not be willing to do this for their fans, I disagree with you. If the demand is high enough in requesting for none of the content to be changed in any way for the US version and most of us don't mind for AT3 to get an M rating to accomplish this, they will consider it. I base this on the recent demand on the Wii version of Phantom Brave for the Japanese audio to be included which although it delayed it's release a bit, NISA heard us out. It won't hurt to try but I need your and the rest of Ar Tonelico fans support to be able to carry out this sort of request. What really needs to be edited at the moment is the title since I feel most of us dislike it and is the first potential mistake NISA is planning to do unless we gather up and let them know what we really want. I along with many others don't want to have to rely on another fan translation, as is currently being done with AT2, in order to get a more accurate and complete vision of this great work of fiction.

As I mentioned before, the first step we should take is to come up with clear and straightforward questions(preferably up to 5) to send directly to NISA. We will review each others' questions and give input whether it's clear enough or not and offer suggestions. For example here are two questions I would ask NISA at the moment concerning AT3:

Concerning game content, Are there current plans on perhaps editing or removing certain content, for example altering some CG art or the character models, in order to meet a certain standard such as making sure the ESRB does not recommend an M rating for the final copy?

Concerning the title, Will you consider changing the current title, Ar Tonelico Qoga Knell of Ar Ciel, and carry out one that most Ar Tonelico fans who have been following this great trilogy vote upon in a NISA forum thread?

These are my current two concerns and if you agree with me you are free to let me know whether they are good enough or not and may reword them in the way you think is best to ask NISA. Depending on NISA's replies, we can then offer them our input and what we really are looking forward to in the final copy of AT3.
We may be able to prevent another and future half-assed Ar Tonelico games if most of us fans gather up and interact with NISA themselves. NISA employees are not psychic and won't know what we want out of their products if we remain silent and simply wait for a game's release.
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Re: Do you think Ar Tonelico 3 will get localized?

Postby noexcusepunk » Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:17 am

I completely agree with Mags in this, it seams. NISA is a business. A business needs to make money. Ar Tonelico is an extremely niche game series in an already niche sub-genre. Alienating or limiting your fanbase once your already an established IP is usually a pretty good indication of what not to do unless it is absolutely necessary due to the ESRB not bending in it's decision, which is exactly what shooting for an M rating would do.

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That being said, I can't help but feel that calling Ar Tonelico 2 a "half-assed game" due to some slight editing and a few dialogue bugs is a stretch. A pretty large one. They maintained their T rating and the game sold well. Hence why they are even considering bringing over the third.
The issue really seems to become a little silly, in terms of considering the M rating, when the content is taken into consideration.
What little content they "removed" (which they really didn't, but added coverings to, and in terms of the dialogue, such is the what happens during translation) did not detract from the game in any way, shape, or form. The music was still amazing, the story well played out, and the battle system kicked ass.

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Think about it this way as well. Ar Tonelico 3 is a game made for the Playstation 3. If you thought the game was niche on the Playstation 2. Now it's even more Niche. Not nearly as many people own a PS3 as a PS2, which is already going to be a limiting factor for them in terms of sales.
So I think we can all agree that any further limitation that can be avoided, such as unnecessarily shooting for an M rating should be avoided if we can expect any further games from NISA on the PS3. We Don't need another Last Rebellion...
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Re: Do you think Ar Tonelico 3 will get localized?

Postby Aryoch » Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:40 am

prinny's sidekick wrote:otakuxgamer has an interview with the localization coordinator. it has a few more tidbits about the localization -

http://otakuxgamer.com/story/7738


THank you for this interview, it was really interesting to see that are concerned about the quality and originality of the game. And about the title change I think it is kinda enjoyable and not so out of sense xD~
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Re: Do you think Ar Tonelico 3 will get localized?

Postby betaflame » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:24 pm

prinny's sidekick wrote:otakuxgamer has an interview with the localization coordinator. it has a few more tidbits about the localization -

http://otakuxgamer.com/story/7738
This is really interesting, thanks.

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Re: Do you think Ar Tonelico 3 will get localized?

Postby Ash » Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:46 pm

aquagon wrote:So convenient to forget that the setting is a Reyvateil-ruled country (Reyvateils=Females only) and the existences of Tilia, Mute, Akane and Harvestasya for the sake of giving strength to your argument.

Okay, ngl, I legit forgot about Akane. But the other three?

Tilia requires you to
Spoiler:
save her/protect her in her cosmosphere (a reflection of her internal, "true" self); her rl actions can be construed as part of her job as the tower overseer. Because her cosmosphere is a reenactment of actual events that occurred prior to her becoming the tower, you can see that yes, Tilia is a weak little girl like everyone else, who simply wants to go to school and be friends with everyone-- save for her unhealthy obsession with the man whom she worked for. Her entirety is devoted to this man; her becoming the tower is entirely for the sake of this man, and once Aoto comes along and saves her from him, she falls in love with, well, Aoto.


MUTE IS A GIANT BUTCH REYVATEIL, YES. Except
Spoiler:
her personality is completely the opposite; she gets pissy whenever anyone describes her as anything BUT feminine. Her "honey", Katena? Rejects her despite being all lovey-dovey with her when he realizes she's actually a loli in disguise, and to rectify this (as in, in order to ensure their continued relationship), Mute chooses to be a giant muscled Reyvateil all the time. She's strictly doing it for Katena's sake, because she was only really doing it before because it was part of her job. Hence the attachment to being "feminine".


Also, the third tower is only Reyvateil-ruled because
Spoiler:
Ayatane went and set it up that way several hundred years prior to the events of AT3. It was never meant to be that way.
Harvestasya is only the way she is
Spoiler:
because Ayatane tampered with her personality settings; her "true"/default nature is a super cute and helpful little girl. She exists only as a tool to revitalize the planet.
Also considering how you can download patches to change her personality, she hardly counts as a "strong female character" when the player can determine what she's like. Blank slate.

Also, "(Reyvateils=Females only)". Not entirely relevant to the conversation, but.
Spoiler:
Tilia: And anyway, you there.
Aoto: M-me?
Tilia: That's a very interesting body you have there. Half-Reyvateil?
Aoto: Huh?
Tilia: External's human, but internal's Reyvateil. And you're not a third-gen, either.
Tilia: Higher emotional levels, and exponentially more powerful... Better keep an eye on you.
Aoto: H-hey, what's up with that? The 'half-Reyvateil' stuff.
Tilia: Friends of half-fish people! Yeah!! Merpeople.
Aoto: Wha...? I'm getting exhausted, just from listening to her talk...



magusgs wrote:Ar Tonelico is not meant to be a realistic game. It's meant to be an *anime* game. A cartoon. A fictional portrayal of a world that only vaguely reflects our own. Objectification of women? Psh. They're cartoons. Any teen should be able to figure out that real people don't act like that. Because real people suck.

I realise that NISA will not want this game to be rated M either. And no, it is total objectification of women. You can say, oh, Hitler's Mein Kampf is only a book of his ideologies, but there are reasons why that material is banned in some countries despite its only being words. It's how those words might affect some people that's the problem, and it's the same with cartoons, tv, etc. Any sort of media material. You can say that the women in AT3 are only cartoons the same way you can call South Park only a cartoon, but there's a reason why SP is only on late-night television despite its being more a satire than anything.

You absolutely cannot expect a teen to "figure it out themselves", and especially not in this society. The ones who can are the exception.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I like AT3 as much as any other game, if not moreso. The dialogue is hilarious, the plot is excellent, and the characters fun, but I will acknowledge the problems the narrative has. I'm not saying any of the content should be changed (far from it, actually), but I am saying that this is what the game has, this is what it does, and this is what it can be interpreted as. Whether a person can understand that no, women are not like that irl and should not be expected as though they ought to be (nor treated in that manner) has no bearing on the fact that this is still the content the game contains.
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Re: Do you think Ar Tonelico 3 will get localized?

Postby magusgs » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:28 pm

From the interview linked above:
Ar Tonelico 3 Localization Coordinator wrote:Do you know if there's going to be any censorship?

First of all, if you think Ar tonelico is dirty, that's because you've got something on your mind. It's totally innocent. It's not supposed to be dirty or provocative. You know, the presenter said it's provocative, right? I think it's his perception. For me, it's totally innocent. But I do understand what you're talking about. The only thing I can say is - "you'll get everything that is in the Japanese version, and even more." So, to answer your question, we can get away with it. It's not supposed to be dirty or anything - it shouldn't be an issue in the first place. I think it's gonna get, most likely, a Teen or Mature [rating].

So you're not going to change anything to get a lower rating?

We're not going to compromise. We're gonna chose the game itself rather than the rating, but most likely it's going to get a Teen or Mature, maybe...

Matter settled. They're not going to alter the game to change the rating (save for some ridiculous situation where the ESRB rates the game adults only, perhaps).

As for the title...who cares if they include the 3 or not? Any fan will know it's the 3rd game in the series. The altered title was approved by Gust (and it's fitting enough). If replacing the 3 with Qoga hooks more casual gamers (who perhaps don't have a PS2), then let them do it.
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Re: Do you think Ar Tonelico 3 will get localized?

Postby aquagon » Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:24 pm

Okay, let me descontruct your arguments one by one:

Ash wrote:Tilia requires you to
Spoiler:
save her/protect her in her cosmosphere (a reflection of her internal, "true" self); her rl actions can be construed as part of her job as the tower overseer. Because her cosmosphere is a reenactment of actual events that occurred prior to her becoming the tower, you can see that yes, Tilia is a weak little girl like everyone else, who simply wants to go to school and be friends with everyone-- save for her unhealthy obsession with the man whom she worked for. Her entirety is devoted to this man; her becoming the tower is entirely for the sake of this man, and once Aoto comes along and saves her from him, she falls in love with, well, Aoto.


Spoiler:
And getting transformed into the Tower, being duplicated through holography, and still being fine is what makes her strong. Or do you think you'd be okay mentally after over 700 years with people tampering around wih your body, getting your mind duplicated into a second body, and all the experiences that she had to go through?
Oh, and let's not forget Kurogane's suicide, with was the cause behind her becoming a faulty Tower for getting so badly scarred with that experience that Rebirthia Protocol ended in a failure.



MUTE IS A GIANT BUTCH REYVATEIL, YES. Except
Spoiler:
her personality is completely the opposite; she gets pissy whenever anyone describes her as anything BUT feminine. Her "honey", Katena? Rejects her despite being all lovey-dovey with her when he realizes she's actually a loli in disguise, and to rectify this (as in, in order to ensure their continued relationship), Mute chooses to be a giant muscled Reyvateil all the time. She's strictly doing it for Katena's sake, because she was only really doing it before because it was part of her job. Hence the attachment to being "feminine".


Spoiler:
And who stills fight like very few Reyvateils can do (the only others that can do any kind of decent physical fighting aside from here are Akane and Cocona, as far as I'm aware). She might be cutesy and feminine in personality, but that doesn't detract at all from the strength and imposing presence she has in her Cutypump'ed form.


Also, the third tower is only Reyvateil-ruled because
Spoiler:
Ayatane went and set it up that way several hundred years prior to the events of AT3. It was never meant to be that way.
Harvestasya is only the way she is
Spoiler:
because Ayatane tampered with her personality settings; her "true"/default nature is a super cute and helpful little girl. She exists only as a tool to revitalize the planet.
Also considering how you can download patches to change her personality, she hardly counts as a "strong female character" when the player can determine what she's like. Blank slate.


The final part of your argument fails because Akira Tsuchiya himself said that the patches were just to be used as a parody mode for the game, and as such, have no relevance in this.
And seems you forgot completely about
Spoiler:
separating her in her XP and Vista forms
. Sure,
Spoiler:
Vista is a nice as XP in the end of the game, but before that, she is pretty much a ruthless dictator focused on the Cleansing and extermination of humans (and she's still being depicted like this in the Toukousphere).


Also, "(Reyvateils=Females only)". Not entirely relevant to the conversation, but.
Spoiler:
Tilia: And anyway, you there.
Aoto: M-me?
Tilia: That's a very interesting body you have there. Half-Reyvateil?
Aoto: Huh?
Tilia: External's human, but internal's Reyvateil. And you're not a third-gen, either.
Tilia: Higher emotional levels, and exponentially more powerful... Better keep an eye on you.
Aoto: H-hey, what's up with that? The 'half-Reyvateil' stuff.
Tilia: Friends of half-fish people! Yeah!! Merpeople.
Aoto: Wha...? I'm getting exhausted, just from listening to her talk...


And let me show you how wrong you interpreted this, with what the creator of the game had to say about this in the Toukousphere, under Tilia's guise:

Toukousphere 92 wrote:
Omake wrote:
Spoiler:
I have a question about half-Reyvateils. In AT3, Tilia-san called Aoto a half-human half-Reyvateil and said "You can become exponentially stronger."
I believe the settei book calls half-Reyvateils an active fusion - a being that's recognized by the Tower as a third generation Reyvateil, even though their Reyvateil nature hasn't actually manifested itself.
So, why are half-Reyvateils so strong if they can't use song magic? Would this make Lyner and others half-Reyvateils, too?



Tilia wrote:
Spoiler:
Maybe I could have put that better. It's his "feelings" that get stronger. Basically, after a certain point he can't restrain his feelings anymore. Once he says it's over, it's over ...
Well, here's a little scoop for you. You're asking if Lyner is a half-Reyvateil, too, and actually, that's how AT1 was originally going to be. He was supposed to have been messed with by Leard-ojiisan and collapse in the middle of the story, and then he'd have to borrow power from the heroine. It seems unreal, but it's true; you never know what can happen in this world. Of course, the real Lyner isn't like that, so don't worry.


Originally taken from here: http://artonelico.isisview.org/wiki/ind ... e/Issue_92


And if you still see the game, and the series in general, as objectification of women, despite them being given the highest social possible status in both At2 and At3, their relevance to the plot, and the feelings of sympathy and compassion the main characters feel for them, I can't avoid but feel sorry for the Reyvateils, since you basically are considering them as objects, like all of the true villains in the series, and misinterpreting every single lesson the games have shown at the end of their plots.

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Re: Do you think Ar Tonelico 3 will get localized?

Postby Taiga » Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:05 pm

Wait, so a woman can't be a strong character and want to be feminine at the same time? That's news to me... :roll:
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Re: Do you think Ar Tonelico 3 will get localized?

Postby Ash » Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:14 pm

I don't really have anything to say to that, because you actually haven't "deconstructed" anything. You haven't even addressed anything I said; only that xx events happened to cause a possible xx result. I'm only looking at exactly what things happened in the game, and not the hypothetical effects of such, which is what you're going into.

Also, I did examine Harvestasya. I already said why she was that way.

&I didn't interpret that wrong, that's exactly what the dialogue in the game said. I made absolutely no commentary on it, merely posted it. I wouldn't know about any "hidden" meanings without reading settei materials; no one would. Doesn't matter, and I said that portion was irrelevant anyway (because it is).

Women are still being objectified. You can spin it any way you like, but it doesn't change that it is a valid mode of examining the events and characters. Frankly, I'm not even sure why you're so vehemently against the concept. Ostentatious white-knighting, I guess.

Taiga wrote:Wait, so a woman can't be a strong character and want to be feminine at the same time?

It's not that she wants to be feminine, it's that she literally denied her personal wishes and desires to bend over backwards for a guy who can't even appreciate who she really is in order to have a good interpersonal relationship with said guy. Also, "strong character" and "strong female character" are two different things.
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Re: Do you think Ar Tonelico 3 will get localized?

Postby magusgs » Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:44 pm

Ash wrote:Also, "strong character" and "strong female character" are two different things.

:roll:

Why should females, much less female characters, have to conform to this stereotype of a "strong female" personality? Seems a bit like indoctrination, don't you think?
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Re: Do you think Ar Tonelico 3 will get localized?

Postby lopez » Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:32 pm

Why is there a fascination with perversive themes in AT games anyways?

Sure sex sells, but do they really need dramatic costume change sequence with bouncing boobs and panty shots? I guess the developers' justified it as a vital story-based gameplay mechanic.... :roll: :|
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Re: Do you think Ar Tonelico 3 will get localized?

Postby aquagon » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:50 pm

Ash wrote:I don't really have anything to say to that, because you actually haven't "deconstructed" anything. You haven't even addressed anything I said; only that xx events happened to cause a possible xx result. I'm only looking at exactly what things happened in the game, and not the hypothetical effects of such, which is what you're going into.

Also, I did examine Harvestasya. I already said why she was that way.

&I didn't interpret that wrong, that's exactly what the dialogue in the game said. I made absolutely no commentary on it, merely posted it. I wouldn't know about any "hidden" meanings without reading settei materials; no one would. Doesn't matter, and I said that portion was irrelevant anyway (because it is).


There is major flaw in your attempt at a counterargument:

Denying everything I said, which is the reasons why these characters are like how they are, and my affirmations on their personalities, dismissing them as simple speculations. And they aren't "speculations" at all: all of that is backed up by information published in the Visual Book, Settei Book and Toukousphere, so you are also making invalid accusations.

Women are still being objectified. You can spin it any way you like, but it doesn't change that it is a valid mode of examining the events and characters. Frankly, I'm not even sure why you're so vehemently against the concept. Ostentatious white-knighting, I guess.


The one white-knighting here is you, since you're the only one that is seeing the girls being objectified, when that isn't the case. If that was, then we would see them acting pretty much as slaves to the main character.

lopez wrote:Why is there a fascination with perversive themes in AT games anyways?

Sure sex sells, but do they really need dramatic costume change sequence with bouncing boobs and panty shots? I guess the developers' justified it as a vital story-based gameplay mechanic.... :roll: :|


And I wonder what are these perverse themes you're talking about.

Aside from obviously Purging (which was also justified as borrowing power from a direct linkage to the Will of Ar Ciel via U-Wave Interference, and whose videos can be easily turned off and avoided), I don't see anything perverse in the other systems. Of course, it's an entirely different matter if you see the Reyvateil-related systems as perverse.


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