Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

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Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby Neon01 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:06 am

Not that I'm bothered by it's depiction, but personally, romance doesn't seem like a viable option with a character that clearly looks like a 12 year old, so I'm disappointed to see that more and more of the girls in the series seem to be underdeveloped/Loli. Sue me, but frankly, I was hoping for a girl with more than a borderline B-cup that I could pursue in ATQ. The first AT wasn't that bad, but AT2 "got worse"
Spoiler:
Jacqli, Luca, Frelia, Coco, and Lakra, for starters, and I'm only halfway through the game
, and from images I've seen, ATQ is holding strong with the underdeveloped woman/Loli theme too. In fairness, the more voluptuous women are in the game, they're just not romance options: AT1 has
Spoiler:
Claire, Tenba Pres, and Spica, just off the top of my head
; AT2 has
Spoiler:
Amarie, Reisha, Spica, Skycat, and probably others
.

Is it just me?

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Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby vampko » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:28 am

It is you. Because you consider 'loli' what is actually a fully developed woman. Not everyone has to have oversized breasts just to not be a loli >.>

Age isn't only determined by breast size :roll:
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Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby doomsaga » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:43 am

you also got to keep in mind that this game was made in japan so its mostly reflected on there culture and most woman in japan don't have huge breast. A side note the youngest of the two main girls has the bigger breast i thought that was a little funny lol.

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Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby Neon01 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:56 am

vampko wrote:It is you. Because you consider 'loli' what is actually a fully developed woman. Not everyone has to have oversized breasts just to not be a loli >.>

Age isn't only determined by breast size :roll:


Are you kidding? Of course there's more to it than breasts. I never said differently. Women (not girls) have hips too...definitely something you don't see on many (any?) of the characters I'm talking about. Also, who said anything about "oversized" breasts? The average female cup size in the US is a C, world wide it's very close to that, if a little smaller. The vast majority of female characters are much, much smaller than that. I'm not at all saying they should load the game with slim and stacked ladies, but a more diverse crowd of ladies would more realistically portray women as a whole.

Cup sizes aside, I'm quite confident you could show images of
Spoiler:
shurelia, jacqli, lakra, frelia, luca, and cocona (just to name a few)
to a random sampling of people, and a statistically significant potion of them would say they're all 14 or younger. I challenge you to find a review of any one of the AT games that doesn't feature the word "underage" at least once. I realize that these people don't necessarily view art in the same way you or I might, but they are probably more representative of average (read: non-otaku) people than our crowd.

I'm only asking that they make more of them look like women, not girls.

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Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby zatrox » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:04 am

The Ar tonelico Reyvateil pattern is the following:

Big breasts.

Small breasts.

Third/Origin Reyvateil.

This pattern is present in every Ar tonelico game.

ATQ Reyvateils are younger, however. Even then, AT1 and AT2 did not feature underage main heroines.

Spoiler:
I mean, Shurelia and Mir are both alive for like 700 years.
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Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby Neon01 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:09 am

zatrox wrote:The Ar tonelico Reyvateil pattern is the following:
ATQ Reyvateils are younger, however. Even then, AT1 and AT2 did not feature underage main heroines.

Spoiler:
I mean, Shurelia and Mir are both alive for like 700 years.


Understood. This was not at all intended to be a condemnation of Gust for using underage girls in romantic situations with of-age males. I fully realize that that is not, in fact, what's going on in the games. However, what their stats say and what they look like seem rather different to me.

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Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby zatrox » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:21 am

Neon01 wrote:
zatrox wrote:The Ar tonelico Reyvateil pattern is the following:
ATQ Reyvateils are younger, however. Even then, AT1 and AT2 did not feature underage main heroines.

Spoiler:
I mean, Shurelia and Mir are both alive for like 700 years.


Understood. This was not at all intended to be a condemnation of Gust for using underage girls in romantic situations with of-age males. I fully realize that that is not, in fact, what's going on in the games. However, what their stats say and what they look like seem rather different to me.

That's the magic of lolis, yo.

In all honesty, I can see where you're coming from, though AT1 and 2, as I said, featured an adult cast (well, kind of, in Misha's situation).

However, hey, there's also this thing with the AT fanbase that, honestly, doesn't mind it. It's just one of those things you either reject or accept, most likely the latter. How can you resist lolis in skin-tight suits, after all?.
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Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby vampko » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:06 pm

zatrox wrote:
Neon01 wrote:
zatrox wrote:The Ar tonelico Reyvateil pattern is the following:
ATQ Reyvateils are younger, however. Even then, AT1 and AT2 did not feature underage main heroines.

Spoiler:
I mean, Shurelia and Mir are both alive for like 700 years.


Understood. This was not at all intended to be a condemnation of Gust for using underage girls in romantic situations with of-age males. I fully realize that that is not, in fact, what's going on in the games. However, what their stats say and what they look like seem rather different to me.

That's the magic of lolis, yo.

In all honesty, I can see where you're coming from, though AT1 and 2, as I said, featured an adult cast (well, kind of, in Misha's situation).

However, hey, there's also this thing with the AT fanbase that, honestly, doesn't mind it. It's just one of those things you either reject or accept, most likely the latter. How can you resist lolis in skin-tight suits, after all?.

I cannot say they are loli when they are not. Too many people throw around that term too easily. I know plenty of real women with similar figures. And, like someone stated, in Japan that kind of figure is more common. Probably Asia in general actually. Here, it seems more unheard of (though it's not), but the game was made by Japanese. Things are changing, but you got to remember that just ten years ago, a japanese person walking around America, would see all the buildings as huge. Basically, an apartment for them, would be a room for us, kind of thing. Even now, they still have a much more petit stature than Americans typically do.

Yes, Shurelia, young-misha, cocona AT 2, and Jakuri would definitely be classified as lolis. But, Luca, Saki, Finnel, would not.
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Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby CelticRedemption » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:19 pm

Actually I think Finnel falls in the loli category just fine, but I agree about Luca and Saki
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Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby vampko » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:22 pm

CelticRedemption wrote:Actually I think Finnel falls in the loli category just fine, but I agree about Luca and Saki

Yeah, I guess you're right. The point is, the cultural barriers are what are making it seem like they're going total loli.

Either way, I definitely don't mind it. I can't wait till this game comes in the mail ~
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Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby magusgs » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:30 pm

You seem to be confusing games and the real world. Don't worry, at least 90% of humanity shares this illness.

Neon01 wrote:Cup sizes aside, I'm quite confident you could show images of Spoiler Alert (select text to view):
shurelia, jacqli, lakra, frelia, luca, and cocona (just to name a few) to a random sampling of people, and a statistically significant potion of them would say they're all 14 or younger. I challenge you to find a review of any one of the AT games that doesn't feature the word "underage" at least once. I realize that these people don't necessarily view art in the same way you or I might, but they are probably more representative of average (read: non-otaku) people than our crowd.

However, what their stats say and what they look like seem rather different to me.

First, why are you so intent on judging the ages of characters? With the exception of Cocona
Spoiler:
(who has an ending but no path),
the romanceable ladies in the Ar tonelico series are NOT children. They have ages and personalities that aren't childlike at all. Oh, and asking the opinions of however many clueless people doesn't lend support to your opinion--the anime style isn't realistic. It's not meant to depict characters in a realistic fashion. It's like a foreigner watching the Simpsons and thinking "wow, those Americans sure are round and yellow".

a more diverse crowd of ladies would more realistically portray women as a whole.

*facepalm*

Neon01 wrote:Not that I'm bothered by it's depiction, but personally, romance doesn't seem like a viable option with a character that clearly looks like a 12 year old, so I'm disappointed to see that more and more of the girls in the series seem to be underdeveloped/Loli.[/spoiler].

Wait, now you're making the leap from your arbitrary assignment of age to the social ideal that romantic interest in children isn't viable? Really? They're characters. It's fiction. No lolis were harmed in the production of this game. Don't try to make this into an ideological argument. There's none to be made.

Sue me, but frankly, I was hoping for a girl with more than a borderline B-cup that I could pursue in ATQ.

You should've just said this to begin with and left it at that. "I don't find the character designs sexually appealing. They're too loli. Lots of people who don't play these type of games agree with me."
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Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby Neon01 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:42 pm

vampko wrote:And, like someone stated, in Japan that kind of figure is more common. Probably Asia in general actually.


If all of the women depicted in the games took such a form, then I think your argument would indeed hold water. As it is, there are some that are quite full-figured, yet none of them appear as the women your character becomes "involved" with. Clearly a more womanly figure is known and even pleasing to some Japanese...in fact, quite a lot of them based on much of the anime I've seen. Further, the assertion that the game is a realistic depiction of Japanese culture is belied by the rampant innuendo and fan service laced through the game. I think Zatrox nailed it when he said the developers are simply trying to pander to a certain crowd.

My initial point wasn't to imply that all of the characters are loli, but I was concerned about the progression toward more younger and underdeveloped females in the AT games. IMO, both of the leading ladies of the first game were definitively feminine, and even the third lady at least has hips and a somewhat womanly appearance. Getting into the second game, things went sharply "down hill", with at least 2-3 main characters styled as no more than 12. Having not yet played the third game, but seeing images of Finnel, I couldn't help but muse about this somewhat unwelcome (IMO) trend.

With all that said, I do think
Spoiler:
Jacqli
is adorable in the bath though. :D But adorable as a girl, not attractive as a woman.

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Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby Neon01 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:02 pm

magusgs wrote:You seem to be confusing games and the real world. Don't worry, at least 90% of humanity shares this illness.


How's that? My entire argument about cup size distribution was only a counterpoint to someone else's argument that anything over a B cup is "oversized" and unrealistic for a Japanese person... Please argue with them, not me. I have no particular interest in realism in my games, I was merely pointing out that a trend toward more voluptuous figures in the game would, in fact, be more realistic.

First, why are you so intent on judging the ages of characters? With the exception of Cocona
Spoiler:
(who has an ending but no path),
the romanceable ladies in the Ar tonelico series are NOT children. They have ages and personalities that aren't childlike at all. Oh, and asking the opinions of however many clueless people doesn't lend support to your opinion--the anime style isn't realistic. It's not meant to depict characters in a realistic fashion. It's like a foreigner watching the Simpsons and thinking "wow, those Americans sure are round and yellow".


I don't care one iota what their ages are. Frankly, personality and maturity in JRPGs share virtually no connection to age (yes, those 10 year old twins are probably ready to go out slaying magical beasts), and I could care less. Age was merely brought into the discussion as context for how old they appear.

Wait, now you're making the leap from your arbitrary assignment of age to the social ideal that romantic interest in children isn't viable? Really? They're characters. It's fiction. No lolis were harmed in the production of this game. Don't try to make this into an ideological argument. There's none to be made.


Huh? Social ideal? Where are you getting any of this? I merely stated that, personally, I'm not interested in playing a character that's portrayed as romantically involved in women that appear as though they're 12. It has nothing to do with social ideals. I'm not here to judge others, nor do I feel I've done so anywhere in my posts. Please read what I actually typed.

You should've just said this to begin with and left it at that. "I don't find the character designs sexually appealing. They're too loli. Lots of people who don't play these type of games agree with me."


With the exception of adding the trend toward more lolis, I don't think I could have come up with a more appropriate summation of my first post. Thanks for putting it so succinctly.

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Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby shymel94 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:19 pm

I understand what you're saying, but I don't fully agree. Luca does have a somewhat small chest, but it is certainly bigger than that of an actual female child. Her body overall is different than one of a child's, like Cocona's in At 2. To be honest, she looks like a few of the girls at my high school, who are close to her in range. Saki, while she does have a younger looking face, she has a bigger chest than even Luca. I think its her clothes that make her look younger. I'd like to point out that Aoto is 17, two years older than Saki and the same age as Finnel. The other protagonist are also close in age I believe.
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Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby magusgs » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:21 pm

Neon01 wrote:
magusgs wrote:Wait, now you're making the leap from your arbitrary assignment of age to the social ideal that romantic interest in children isn't viable? Really? They're characters. It's fiction. No lolis were harmed in the production of this game. Don't try to make this into an ideological argument. There's none to be made.


Huh? Social ideal? Where are you getting any of this? I merely stated that, personally, I'm not interested in playing a character that's portrayed as romantically involved in women that appear as though they're 12. It has nothing to do with social ideals. I'm not here to judge others, nor do I feel I've done so anywhere in my posts. Please read what I actually typed.


romance doesn't seem like a viable option with a character that clearly looks like a 12 year old

That sounds like a moral accusation if I've ever heard one. Your clarification (above) avoids this, though you're still hung up on the age thing.
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