Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

The official forums for all things Ar Tonelico
User avatar
vampko
Netherworld Grand Duke
Netherworld Grand Duke
Posts: 42005
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:31 am
Location: 暮し幸せ

Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby vampko » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:51 pm

Neon01 wrote:
magusgs wrote:You seem to be confusing games and the real world. Don't worry, at least 90% of humanity shares this illness.


How's that? My entire argument about cup size distribution was only a counterpoint to someone else's argument that anything over a B cup is "oversized" and unrealistic for a Japanese person... Please argue with them, not me. I have no particular interest in realism in my games, I was merely pointing out that a trend toward more voluptuous figures in the game would, in fact, be more realistic.

First, why are you so intent on judging the ages of characters? With the exception of Cocona
Spoiler:
(who has an ending but no path),
the romanceable ladies in the Ar tonelico series are NOT children. They have ages and personalities that aren't childlike at all. Oh, and asking the opinions of however many clueless people doesn't lend support to your opinion--the anime style isn't realistic. It's not meant to depict characters in a realistic fashion. It's like a foreigner watching the Simpsons and thinking "wow, those Americans sure are round and yellow".


I don't care one iota what their ages are. Frankly, personality and maturity in JRPGs share virtually no connection to age (yes, those 10 year old twins are probably ready to go out slaying magical beasts), and I could care less. Age was merely brought into the discussion as context for how old they appear.

Wait, now you're making the leap from your arbitrary assignment of age to the social ideal that romantic interest in children isn't viable? Really? They're characters. It's fiction. No lolis were harmed in the production of this game. Don't try to make this into an ideological argument. There's none to be made.


Huh? Social ideal? Where are you getting any of this? I merely stated that, personally, I'm not interested in playing a character that's portrayed as romantically involved in women that appear as though they're 12. It has nothing to do with social ideals. I'm not here to judge others, nor do I feel I've done so anywhere in my posts. Please read what I actually typed.

You should've just said this to begin with and left it at that. "I don't find the character designs sexually appealing. They're too loli. Lots of people who don't play these type of games agree with me."


With the exception of adding the trend toward more lolis, I don't think I could have come up with a more appropriate summation of my first post. Thanks for putting it so succinctly.

I never said they were going for 'realism', I only said that to a Japanese audience it doesn't look as 'childish' as it would to you.

I have grown up around anime, and I would not say that they're going more 'loli' as you say. To me, loli involves more than what you say.

And, outside of Shurelia, and maybe Jakuri, none of the romance interests could hope to pass off for 12. You're really over-exaggerating things.

I think Magus got it right, when he stated your main complaint is that they don't appeal to you sexually, because you want more busty/curvy women. Which is your opinion. But saying that they're going too loli is a bit off.
あの巨人シノはあんたたちの金髪少女の髪を食べたいな顔をしてるよ
Image
AniList (no need to reg to view)
[06:46:27] <Solice> you're like dealing with a bag of rabid cats
Zdood: You are who you are. And you are a captain at the wheel of an easily-sinkable fleet of ships made of duct tape.
Spoiler:
Image

Neon01
Majin
Majin
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:22 pm

Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby Neon01 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:16 pm

magusgs wrote:
romance doesn't seem like a viable option with a character that clearly looks like a 12 year old

That sounds like a moral accusation if I've ever heard one. Your clarification (above) avoids this, though you're still hung up on the age thing.


Wow... If you're going to selectively quote me to try to prove a point, then I guess there's not much I can do to defend myself. For the record, here is the entire quote from my original post:

Not that I'm bothered by it's depiction, but personally, romance doesn't seem like a viable option with a character that clearly looks like a 12 year old...


Notice that I specifically disclaimed that I'm not making a judgment about its inclusion, and that I emphasized (via italics) that this statement was my opinion. The only judgment going on in this thread is directed at me, if you haven't noticed.

And I'm not sure why you think I'm "hung up on" anything. As I've said, I've used age merely as a context to describe the appearance of the characters depicted in the game. Would you not agree that the character's we're referring to appear younger than 18? In any discussion about how developed or sexually mature an individual appears, age is 100% germane in my book. This has nothing to do with legal statute or other societal conventions.

I realized that this thread might draw some fire when I posted it, but I get the sense that some members of this community are so sensitive to complaints about loli and underage sexual depiction (probably not unfairly, I would add) that it's become second nature to immediately go on the offensive.

I apologize if I've offended someone by incorrectly classifying the depiction of sexually immature - or even sexually mature but youthful appearing - characters. Ok, I'm gonna crawl back in my hole now. :oops:

User avatar
magusgs
Netherworld Duke
Netherworld Duke
Posts: 2202
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:36 am

Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby magusgs » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:19 pm

vampko wrote:I have grown up around anime, and I would not say that they're going more 'loli' as you say. To me, loli involves more than what you say.

I can't be the only one dying to hear vampko's defining treatise "Of loli and men: A perspective on this evolving character archetype in Japanese animation culture".
Sanahtlig's Corner: my personal blog focused on visual novels
Philosophical musings, argumentative squabbles, and fictional works. Also occasional rants about VN localization.

User avatar
Rednal
Netherworld Grand Duke
Netherworld Grand Duke
Posts: 16942
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:09 am
Location: Cuddling with Coco

Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby Rednal » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:20 pm

Spoiler:
I would say that some of the characters involved appear to be shapeshifting. *Looks at Saki* The problem with assigning age to drawings is that people can interpret in different ways; some are fairly obvious, like Little Misha in AT1, but others aren't so easy to place.
PSN: LordRednal / Twitter: @Rednal29 ] Twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/rednal29
Image

User avatar
magusgs
Netherworld Duke
Netherworld Duke
Posts: 2202
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:36 am

Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby magusgs » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:37 pm

Neon01 wrote:
magusgs wrote:
romance doesn't seem like a viable option with a character that clearly looks like a 12 year old

That sounds like a moral accusation if I've ever heard one. Your clarification (above) avoids this, though you're still hung up on the age thing.


Wow... If you're going to selectively quote me to try to prove a point, then I guess there's not much I can do to defend myself. For the record, here is the entire quote from my original post:

Not that I'm bothered by it's depiction, but personally, romance doesn't seem like a viable option with a character that clearly looks like a 12 year old...


Notice that I specifically disclaimed that I'm not making a judgment about its inclusion, and that I emphasized (via italics) that this statement was my opinion. The only judgment going on in this thread is directed at me, if you haven't noticed.

And I'm not sure why you think I'm "hung up on" anything. As I've said, I've used age merely as a context to describe the appearance of the characters depicted in the game. Would you not agree that the character's we're referring to appear younger than 18? In any discussion about how developed or sexually mature an individual appears, age is 100% germane in my book. This has nothing to do with legal statute or other societal conventions.

I realized that this thread might draw some fire when I posted it, but I get the sense that some members of this community are so sensitive to complaints about loli and underage sexual depiction (probably not unfairly, I would add) that it's become second nature to immediately go on the offensive.

I apologize if I've offended someone by incorrectly classifying the depiction of sexually immature - or even sexually mature but youthful appearing - characters. Ok, I'm gonna crawl back in my hole now. :oops:

I quoted it originally with all the context present. You asked me:
Huh? Social ideal? Where are you getting any of this?

I responded with the trigger phrase. You can qualify it however you want; you're still clearly making a morally charged claim, even if that wasn't your intention. I've seen reviews of the game that clearly do have that intention. "I don't like the loli archetype. It's disgusting, degrading, and creepy. Therefore it shouldn't be there. They should make characters more attractive to *normal* people like me."

I realized that this thread might draw some fire when I posted it, but I get the sense that some members of this community are so sensitive to complaints about loli and underage sexual depiction (probably not unfairly, I would add) that it's become second nature to immediately go on the offensive.

I apologize if I've offended someone by incorrectly classifying the depiction of sexually immature - or even sexually mature but youthful appearing - characters. Ok, I'm gonna crawl back in my hole now.

When mainstream review sites are blasting the game for sexualization of "minors" and downrating the story because of it, yes, it's rather irritating. Drop the moral overtones if you want to discuss this on an even playing field--which you have, at this point. But if you ask where I'm coming from, it shouldn't be any surprise when I respond.
Sanahtlig's Corner: my personal blog focused on visual novels
Philosophical musings, argumentative squabbles, and fictional works. Also occasional rants about VN localization.

User avatar
vampko
Netherworld Grand Duke
Netherworld Grand Duke
Posts: 42005
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:31 am
Location: 暮し幸せ

Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby vampko » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:44 pm

magusgs wrote:
vampko wrote:I have grown up around anime, and I would not say that they're going more 'loli' as you say. To me, loli involves more than what you say.

I can't be the only one dying to hear vampko's defining treatise "Of loli and men: A perspective on this evolving character archetype in Japanese animation culture".

:lol: Wow i seriously actually laughed out loud at this

I probably could make a research paper out of it, but you'll at least get a short essay if you compile everything I've posted in this forum so far xD
あの巨人シノはあんたたちの金髪少女の髪を食べたいな顔をしてるよ
Image
AniList (no need to reg to view)
[06:46:27] <Solice> you're like dealing with a bag of rabid cats
Zdood: You are who you are. And you are a captain at the wheel of an easily-sinkable fleet of ships made of duct tape.
Spoiler:
Image

User avatar
Venus
Netherworld Grand Duke
Netherworld Grand Duke
Posts: 6569
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:30 pm
Location: Hearts
Contact:

Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby Venus » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:49 pm

Image
Image
Image
PSN: Rena-chan43
Image
XBOX Live: Renachan43
Image
Image

User avatar
magusgs
Netherworld Duke
Netherworld Duke
Posts: 2202
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:36 am

Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby magusgs » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:57 pm

vampko wrote:
magusgs wrote:
vampko wrote:I have grown up around anime, and I would not say that they're going more 'loli' as you say. To me, loli involves more than what you say.

I can't be the only one dying to hear vampko's defining treatise "Of loli and men: A perspective on this evolving character archetype in Japanese animation culture".

:lol: Wow i seriously actually laughed out loud at this

I probably could make a research paper out of it, but you'll at least get a short essay if you compile everything I've posted in this forum so far xD

We'll settle for a mini-review. I'm busy writing mine on epigenetic regulation of endocrine resistant breast cancer, so I'll let you handle this one.
Sanahtlig's Corner: my personal blog focused on visual novels
Philosophical musings, argumentative squabbles, and fictional works. Also occasional rants about VN localization.

ninina
Loyal Vassal
Loyal Vassal
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:54 pm

Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby ninina » Tue Mar 15, 2011 3:54 am

I'm not so sure about the lolification (new word!) of the series...as a person on the net once pointed out to me lolis are pre-pubescent thus if it has a breast size at all it's not really a loli. What I will say is there has definitely been a increase in sexualization the Ar Tonelico series, or at least it's translation. AT1 was awkward and full of innuendo like a first love, AT2 seemed to have discovered sex in a more overt sense and in AT3 we seem to have arrived at a sense of comfort with the subject. AT as a series is really rooted in the human condition, at times it's happy and others it is sad with the theme of sexually looming in the background. The characters fight a tide of events older and bigger then themselves and not communicating with others results in tragedy. To go with all of that there is the haunting beauty of the songs and the stories of the world buried in them if one gets a translation. I am truly sad that this is the last Ar Tonelico game, as the world is a masterpiece. Although volumes could be written on possible sexist undertones.

That being said I do understand where the OP is coming from. While not worried about the loli part and as other people have pointed out the Japanese build is different then the Caucasian build. I was worried about the overt-sexual nature of the game as a function of social norms. "What will other people think" went through my mind multiple times as well as a few worries that the game might be too dark. In the end I'm going to buy it and play it to see for myself, but maybe make a new account on my PS3 in order to hide that fact :P.

-Ninina

User avatar
CelticRedemption
Netherworld Duke
Netherworld Duke
Posts: 2395
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:05 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby CelticRedemption » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:58 am

Hahaha, I've long since discarded the worries of what people would think about the games I play. It'd be really hard to play games like Ar tonelico otherwise.
ImageImage
ImageImageImage
ImageImage
Image
[20:25] <Solice> hey, sailor tenshi... blow or squirt?
[20:26] <Kana> ....what

ninina
Loyal Vassal
Loyal Vassal
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:54 pm

Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby ninina » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:25 am

Haha, yeah that is true...I didn't care so much before they started making games all social and posting all the stuff you did over the net. I guess the plus is I have no PSN friends so it's not like anyone will see anything =P I thought I would care about that stuff less as I got older but I think I care about it even more. =\
Image

User avatar
CelticRedemption
Netherworld Duke
Netherworld Duke
Posts: 2395
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:05 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby CelticRedemption » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:28 am

ninina wrote:Haha, yeah that is true...I didn't care so much before they started making games all social and posting all the stuff you did over the net. I guess the plus is I have no PSN friends so it's not like anyone will see anything =P I thought I would care about that stuff less as I got older but I think I care about it even more. =\


You just need friends with similar interests in gaming
ImageImage
ImageImageImage
ImageImage
Image
[20:25] <Solice> hey, sailor tenshi... blow or squirt?
[20:26] <Kana> ....what

ninina
Loyal Vassal
Loyal Vassal
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:54 pm

Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby ninina » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:26 am

Haha, yeah. I've been meaning to find another GUST fanatic or 2 to add to my friends. It is hard to get around cultural programming and just stop caring. It's an interesting form of cognitive dissonance where you are internally fine with something but not externally. All that aside it's not like any of the AT are even remotely Lolicon. I mean it's nothing like the infamous examples like lolita or Kodomo no Jikan (neither of which I've read). If I had to put a finger on it I'd say it's the purge scenes...if they hadn't put the purge scenes in I'd have never even thought about it, even if the dialog was much more suggestive. Sometimes I'm fascinated by the way my own mind works.
Image

User avatar
vampko
Netherworld Grand Duke
Netherworld Grand Duke
Posts: 42005
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:31 am
Location: 暮し幸せ

Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby vampko » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:44 am

ninina wrote:Haha, yeah. I've been meaning to find another GUST fanatic or 2 to add to my friends. It is hard to get around cultural programming and just stop caring. It's an interesting form of cognitive dissonance where you are internally fine with something but not externally. All that aside it's not like any of the AT are even remotely Lolicon. I mean it's nothing like the infamous examples like lolita or Kodomo no Jikan (neither of which I've read). If I had to put a finger on it I'd say it's the purge scenes...if they hadn't put the purge scenes in I'd have never even thought about it, even if the dialog was much more suggestive. Sometimes I'm fascinated by the way my own mind works.

I programmed myself to get around cultural programming since a VERY young age. So, I'm fine in that aspect. I'd totally wear a shirt with a catgirl loli on it in a public setting no problem ~

But, other people did not condition themselves at such an early age, so they're likely to have a harder time with it.
あの巨人シノはあんたたちの金髪少女の髪を食べたいな顔をしてるよ
Image
AniList (no need to reg to view)
[06:46:27] <Solice> you're like dealing with a bag of rabid cats
Zdood: You are who you are. And you are a captain at the wheel of an easily-sinkable fleet of ships made of duct tape.
Spoiler:
Image

ninina
Loyal Vassal
Loyal Vassal
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:54 pm

Re: Increasing Loli theme from AT1-AT2-ATQ? (mild spoilers?)

Postby ninina » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:25 am

Haha! Well that would be a sight to see. Then again I've been known to do stuff like that when around certain friends who always seem to have a costume ready if I'm sleep deprived or otherwise uninhibited. Maybe I should start wearing a lab coat, rectangle glasses and catears around...maybe a nice hat too like a top hat. Bet that would break me of the programming quickly.

On a more topic related note, even if the characters are loli what makes this quantitative different then two animated characters making thinly disguised sexual reference on saterday morning cartoons or two anthromorphic animals falling in love in a Disney film?
Image


Return to “Ar Tonelico Series”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 1 guest