Puella Magi Madoka Magica

[vampko]

'Twisting the truth' is still lying. If you're not telling the truth, you're lying. And Kyubey did in fact lie.

I honestly see Kyuubey's race as a bunch of 4Channers with lots of power basically. I don't buy the 'emotionless' part one bit.

And where do you get this 'sustaining the universe' bit from? I only recall him ever talking about maintaining his own planet and destroying others in the process...

[Seventh]

In that case, that just opens up so many wonderful arguments for me, so hey, let's go with that. I want him to be a liar.

Emotionless or just having differring emotions/logic, either way, from their perspective, what they were doing was for the better of the universe - otherwise we wouldn't have QB AGAIN in the "good" world, still doing what's necessary.

And uh... From what he told Madoka? He told her that the energy they were gathering was sustaining the universe from being destroyed. I've never heard of what you're saying before.

[vampko]

Odd....Well I was in such a dark mood the entire time I was watching it, it's not that hard to believe I twisted teh story myself.

I still don't buy 90% of what Kyuubey says though.

If you trust Kyuubey, then he seems good if you're the sort of person that believes the ends justifies the means. If you're not, then you will see him as evil.

[Seventh]

Well, that's your opinion. Fact is, QB tells the truth, he just manipulates how/when he says it.

All I was saying is that he's not evil (that's a concept beyond him) nor is he the villain. No need to throw accusations around.

[vampko]

Well, that's your opinion. Fact is, QB tells the truth, he just manipulates how/when he says it.

All I was saying is that he's not evil (that's a concept beyond him) nor is he the villain. No need to throw accusations around.

Your concept of evil is what matters though. Again, we're looking at someone who believes the ends justifies the means. Which I don't particularly like. In real life, I'm not sure what I would think, but this isn't real life. Also, you must maintain, that I see Kyuubey as a liar. As such, your view of him, and my view of him are different.

If you don't accept that he's a liar, then of course seeing him as 'good' is always a possibility. Unless you don't believe the ends justifies the means. And since many a JRPG used that as a way to make out a villain, it's right hard to not think of the guy as evil.

[Seventh]

I'm seeing a liar as what the definition of a liar is: someone who tells lies. QB, for all his withholding the truth, didn't tell a lie - he just told when to speak the truth. HAD he told lies, flat out outright lies, the ending's validity along with his role in the after-world wouldn't make sense.

If you want to warp the definition of the word to fit your purposes, that's cool and all, but you'd be better off with a word like manipulator or something, which he is absolutely.

Furthermore, my concept of evil isn't what matters at all. Objectively, we can believe he's evil or not, but from the start it was still the girls' choice (except maybe in Mami's case) to make their wishes in the first place - the fact no one thought to ask "What's the catch?" and give him the chance to even point out what catch there might be is their fault, if anything.

In any case, I'm just saying people are too damn hard on the thing when most of the events of the series are ultimately Homura's fault/she could have assisted somehow were she not so obsessed. Don't hate the player, hate the game, etc.

[vampko]

I'm seeing a liar as what the definition of a liar is: someone who tells lies. QB, for all his withholding the truth, didn't tell a lie - he just told when to speak the truth. HAD he told lies, flat out outright lies, the ending's validity along with his role in the after-world wouldn't make sense.

If you want to warp the definition of the word to fit your purposes, that's cool and all, but you'd be better off with a word like manipulator or something, which he is absolutely.

Furthermore, my concept of evil isn't what matters at all. Objectively, we can believe he's evil or not, but from the start it was still the girls' choice (except maybe in Mami's case) to make their wishes in the first place - the fact no one thought to ask "What's the catch?" and give him the chance to even point out what catch there might be is their fault, if anything.

In any case, I'm just saying people are too damn hard on the thing when most of the events of the series are ultimately Homura's fault/she could have assisted somehow were she not so obsessed. Don't hate the player, hate the game, etc.

And I am saying I believe he lies. I've got no proof, just a hunch of sorts. And that's what I base my opinion of him on. Remember, the show made me very angry and all around depressed when I watched it.

[Seventh]

Well, you can believe... whatever you want, but factually, he never once lied (at least, in the world where the ending is plausible), and everything he said was true in one way or another, he just twisted it.

But if you want to say he's a liar, then that means there was no basis for the ending to happen, so we'll just be going in circles if we go there.

Anyone else read the new Kazumi yet?

[myskaros]

@Seventh: "Concept of evil" really does matter when you're labeling someone as evil/not evil... Evil is an opinion/bias, you can't globally label a person/object as evil and think that everyone believes the same. If you want to talk about the societal portrayal of good and evil, as the book I Am Legend depicts well, that just depends on which side you're on. Your points are correct, but you can't refute someone thinking that he, as a being, is evil.

I don't remember enough of workings behind the Madoka world to accurately form a stance in this discussion, but, isn't it plausible for QB to be just toying with them all? Maybe there was an intergalactic bet to see how many witches he could create, or how long he can go until someone figures it out, and he was allowed to use any method of persuasion he wished. Who knows. All we know is that he says some stuff, it may or may not be (100%) true, and the girls all decide to believe him. I mean, if the characters also think he's lying, there's no story unless it's all true. However, blind belief does forgive a lack of proof.

Knowing nothing about him, and with the show not actually showing any proof supporting his explanations, I think the viewers are free to interpret however they want, until new canon material adds to the pool of knowledge.

Sometimes... not all the time, not most times, but sometimes... there really is nothing to read between the lines. Know the book Hatchet by Gary Paulsen? There was an interview once, where he was asked what the meaning was, what the symbolism was, why he chose to write about certain topics. His answer? "I just wanted to write a book about a kid surviving in the wilderness. I didn't really think about deep meaning." It's entirely possible that the writer didn't think too hard about the ending, he just thought it would be cool to break the vicious cycle in that manner.

[Seventh]

Given how that in the witchless world, the fact that there's still energy collecting going on and that he's essentially Homura's proper animal sidekick, filling her in on everything, supports the idea that he was telling the truth in the initial world, and that it's necessary for the universe no matter what you do.

I mean, sure, he could have been bullshitting, but given everything, nothing really points to it at this point - and I WANT him to be lying.

[myskaros]

This is both relevant and awesome.

http://img2.sankakustatic.com/wp-conten ... t-back.jpg

[LAMV]

This is both relevant and awesome.

http://img2.sankakustatic.com/wp-conten ... t-back.jpg

Oh wow

[Rednal]

XD

I've seen one with Mami looking for her head, too.

[Alura--x--Uneii]

Her hat is a pair of panties? xD

[vampko]

Her hat is a pair of panties? xD

Madoka's Panties to be precise