How would you improve this game?

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Re: How would you improve this game?

Postby vampko » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:13 am

Seventh wrote:Just some things that are bugging me:

- Why is it that Neptune's default outfit doesn't really... match the other three Goddesses'? They all seem to have ones that are, overall, very similar. I mean, she doesn't even have a "Goddess Neptune/Purple Heart!" outfit change from what I can tell for when she gets her memories back.

- To that point-- Back on the concept, now that I'm towards the end-game here... This isn't even the console wars OR the consoles fight piracy, which is how it was marketed (or at least how I heard about it) - it's Sega either fighting piracy alone or getting the other companies to do it. ... Okay??? That's kind of... odd. It really is just Sega getting a harem.

It is a REALLY GOOD THING that Neptune is such a likeable character, or I expect this game might be getting some serious feedback for this - but maybe that's just me.

Yeah, they mis-marketed the game really badly
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Re: How would you improve this game?

Postby Bishamon-ten » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:21 pm

1) Manual Healing Control - Seriously, I hated the idea of not being able to control characters in the Star Ocean series, and in this game the computer decides when to WASTE... err... use your precious healing resources? I am fine with manually controlling when I believe it is proper to use healing & recovery items, and believe I can do a better job of recognizing when is the most effective time to use them than some stupid AI based on a random percentage chance! Also, why is there such an abundance of one single synth material dropped when there are four DIFFERENT ones? I already have 999 of the first one, and less than 200 of each of the others!

2) Dungeon Balancing - As others have said, sometimes the monsters have been significantly harder than the end boss! Also, suggested level for dungeons is sometimes blatantly out of synch - I am on a dungeon in Lastation which claims a level 30 recommendation, yet I can't even get past the random monster groups without dying, and all my characters are level 33! I can't increase their stats any higher, and yet they keep getting killed because their HP and defense is apparently not high enough to withstand attacks due to another complaint I have with the battle system...

3) Non-Cheap Monster Attacks - Why do all monsters get the ability to attack twice? This seems an incredibly cheap way to increase the difficulty, along with the frustration level. I should not have the outlook of needing to grind for 5 or more levels above the dungeon level recommendation because the monsters are not only ridiculously strong, but also get to hit two different characters, one character twice, or even the entire party twice!

4) A Complete Manual - With a full explanation of all the game mechanics, systems, and stats. If it is shown in the game (share info, for instance), it should be explained in the manual!

5) A Full, Complete Game on Disc - I don't appreciate being baited with Gust and NISA as "guests" - either don't put them in my party at all and then give me quests to obtain them if I wish, or make them playable from the get-go! I have no intention of purchasing DLC after being used like a horse with a carrot dangling in front of its nose!

I used to unconditionally recommend buying NIS games to everyone who asked or was interested, but after this whole bit with the DLC-baiting "guest" characters and seeing what was done with Disgaea 2 PSP (taking out Hanako and making her DLC when she originally joined as part of the story in D2 on PS2), I can no longer stand behind this company. If this practice of seeing the consumer as a blank checkbook does not stop, I will refuse to purchase any other games and will warn everyone about the "bait & hook" tactics which it seems NIS is embracing...

NIS, I am thoroughly disappoint... :(
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Re: How would you improve this game?

Postby Ghaleon » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:01 pm

NIS didn't make the game, they just localized it.

Also the purpose of this thread is to point ou gripes in a way for possible improvements via constructive criticism (kinda) not to bash anybody, so please don't do that further, at least not in this topic. I was hoping for something that let people critique the game in a positive tone.
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Re: How would you improve this game?

Postby Bishamon-ten » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:45 pm

Ghaleon wrote:NIS didn't make the game, they just localized it.


Which game are you referring? I listed two of them. I am going to guess you're talking about HDN, because I find it hard to believe they don't make their flagship series Disgaea.

Whether they produced the game or simply localized it, NIS & NISA published it, put their logo's upon it, the box art, and the manual, so therefore any gripes with the game are deservedly going to be sent their way. NISA was the one responsible for the manual and documentation - I do not see a link / redirect for forums of the company that made it to air grievances, do you?

Ghaleon wrote:Also the purpose of this thread is to point ou gripes in a way for possible improvements via constructive criticism (kinda) not to bash anybody, so please don't do that further, at least not in this topic. I was hoping for something that let people critique the game in a positive tone.


As someone who's been playing RPGs for over 3 decades, both good and bad, I believe my "gripes" are valid and appropriate. For the last week or so since I have gotten the game, I have noticed annoyances that, little by little, have built up to become a huge frustration when playing a game I so want to love - this has led me to voice my criticism in such as way as to attempt to make someone within the game company aware of my displeasure with their product.

If you do not like my tone of criticism, then you need to remember that there are those of us out there who are serious about a good video game experience, and half-hearted releases from companies we deeply respect disappoint us just as deeply.

Did you think everyone in this thread was going to be like "OMG, it was pretty cool, but it would be SOOOOOOOO much BETTAR if they added [x] feature! Teehee!"? :roll:
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Re: How would you improve this game?

Postby Ghaleon » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:56 pm

I merely stated the purpose of this topic and asked kindly to try and maintain it. Did you REALLY need that last comment? This game is appreciated and enjoyed by many people. If NISA decided not to localize it, I'm sure many of their fans would be less happy than they are now. So regardless of your Problems of this game, I think they are trying to, and are succeeding at pleasing their customers.

So even if your complaints are valid (and I never said you didnt) I think the whole "I have to tell my friends to ignore NIS/NISA products now" comment is something worth disputing.

Disagree if you like, but please try to refrain from turning this into an insultfest with more innuendos towards my supposed ditsy behavior.
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Re: How would you improve this game?

Postby Azuremoon » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:32 pm

Bishamon-ten wrote:1) Manual Healing Control - Seriously, I hated the idea of not being able to control characters in the Star Ocean series, and in this game the computer decides when to WASTE... err... use your precious healing resources? I am fine with manually controlling when I believe it is proper to use healing & recovery items, and believe I can do a better job of recognizing when is the most effective time to use them than some stupid AI based on a random percentage chance! Also, why is there such an abundance of one single synth material dropped when there are four DIFFERENT ones? I already have 999 of the first one, and less than 200 of each of the others!


Eh ? I have played star ocean 3/4 and as i recall i can control my characters......
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Re: How would you improve this game?

Postby Justin iZ Here » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:41 pm

Bishamon-ten wrote:1) Manual Healing Control - Seriously, I hated the idea of not being able to control characters in the Star Ocean series, and in this game the computer decides when to WASTE... err... use your precious healing resources? I am fine with manually controlling when I believe it is proper to use healing & recovery items, and believe I can do a better job of recognizing when is the most effective time to use them than some stupid AI based on a random percentage chance! Also, why is there such an abundance of one single synth material dropped when there are four DIFFERENT ones? I already have 999 of the first one, and less than 200 of each of the others!


im not to long away from the end game and i have about 999 reflex, and 750 of the red one and 600+ of the other 2, healing items arnt in short supply

pro tip: once you get neptune break farm the hell out of scenario dungeons 1 hitting all the enemies at once with no risk...ul see what i mean
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Re: How would you improve this game?

Postby Ocyd » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:20 pm

A strategy guide would've been nice. If for nothing else the peace of mind having one brings.
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Re: How would you improve this game?

Postby Justin iZ Here » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:44 pm

Ocyd wrote:A strategy guide would've been nice. If for nothing else the peace of mind having one brings.

i dont see the need, the games whole explore(ish) system is menu based and the dungeons arnt that complex, just use monster call and explore to ur hearts content.

i can see it being useful as a checklist for the plat trophy but that's honestly it :? not worth the trouble or effort of anyone typing up or a company printing one.
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Re: How would you improve this game?

Postby Seventh » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:21 pm

Bishamon-ten wrote:1) Manual Healing Control - Seriously, I hated the idea of not being able to control characters in the Star Ocean series, and in this game the computer decides when to WASTE... err... use your precious healing resources? I am fine with manually controlling when I believe it is proper to use healing & recovery items, and believe I can do a better job of recognizing when is the most effective time to use them than some stupid AI based on a random percentage chance! Also, why is there such an abundance of one single synth material dropped when there are four DIFFERENT ones? I already have 999 of the first one, and less than 200 of each of the others!

Funny, I had a problem with the first one because in later dungeons it seemed to be the only one that DIDN'T drop. Lucky they're cheap, and even cheaper once you have Gust, so it was no problem soon enough.

Really though, this game's healing system is a really good idea, I think. Managing it during boss fights (I've already talked about my adventures recruiting Black Heart while horrendously underleveled somewhere on this board - wouldn't have been possible without this system) is great fun, and more to the point, having it automatically like this means you don't have to waste a turn doing it yourself. It just could have been worked out a little better and perhaps been given a better tutorial.

Bishamon-ten wrote:2) Dungeon Balancing - As others have said, sometimes the monsters have been significantly harder than the end boss! Also, suggested level for dungeons is sometimes blatantly out of synch - I am on a dungeon in Lastation which claims a level 30 recommendation, yet I can't even get past the random monster groups without dying, and all my characters are level 33! I can't increase their stats any higher, and yet they keep getting killed because their HP and defense is apparently not high enough to withstand attacks due to another complaint I have with the battle system...

Yeah, this seems to be an odd thing about the dungeons, but it doesn't apply to all of them oddly enough, so in the cases it DID happen, I just tended to grind a little on the enemies and walk out or just blitz through them with run aways.

Really, how often do RPGs TELL you what level you should be for the dungeon? Even if it's just for the boss at the end and not the enemies (though I did fine just following the game's "guide") it's still pretty damn nice, all things considered.

Bishamon-ten wrote:3) Non-Cheap Monster Attacks - Why do all monsters get the ability to attack twice? This seems an incredibly cheap way to increase the difficulty, along with the frustration level. I should not have the outlook of needing to grind for 5 or more levels above the dungeon level recommendation because the monsters are not only ridiculously strong, but also get to hit two different characters, one character twice, or even the entire party twice!

Well... To be fair, if you think about it, the monsters may be attacking twice, but you're attacking until your AP runs out. The monsters probably would think they're getting screwed over as much as you are. The way I see it, monsters are strong/have different stat builds than our characters, and their AP only lasts for two attacks. Pretty fair if you ask me.

Bishamon-ten wrote:4) A Complete Manual - With a full explanation of all the game mechanics, systems, and stats. If it is shown in the game (share info, for instance), it should be explained in the manual!

Really, except for a few things (like share info, admittedly) it's fairly straightforward for the most part. I can understand where you're coming from though.

Bishamon-ten wrote:5) A Full, Complete Game on Disc - I don't appreciate being baited with Gust and NISA as "guests" - either don't put them in my party at all and then give me quests to obtain them if I wish, or make them playable from the get-go! I have no intention of purchasing DLC after being used like a horse with a carrot dangling in front of its nose!

I think we all agree to some extent with you in regards to Nisa and Gust, but on the other hand, it IS kind of nice only having three party members for most of the game.

Bishamon-ten wrote:I used to unconditionally recommend buying NIS games to everyone who asked or was interested, but after this whole bit with the DLC-baiting "guest" characters and seeing what was done with Disgaea 2 PSP (taking out Hanako and making her DLC when she originally joined as part of the story in D2 on PS2)

.... I take it you didn't actually play Disgaea 2 PSP. :roll: The Hanako that is DLC is Hanako from ten years in the future, who plays like a human character and is essentially a completely different character as far as gameplay (and even story) is concerned, and was a nice way to wrap up the "plot" of all of the DLC, which involved Hanako directly summoning all of the other characters. In the end, Hanako from the future tells her younger self off and warns her to make sure to send everyone home.

However, all of that said, the monster class Hanako is still there like she always was.

NIS, I am thoroughly disappoint... :(
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Re: How would you improve this game?

Postby Bishamon-ten » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:03 am

Seventh wrote:Really though, this game's healing system is a really good idea, I think. Managing it during boss fights (I've already talked about my adventures recruiting Black Heart while horrendously underleveled somewhere on this board - wouldn't have been possible without this system) is great fun, and more to the point, having it automatically like this means you don't have to waste a turn doing it yourself. It just could have been worked out a little better and perhaps been given a better tutorial.

No, it wastes resources when not necessary, and not only during boss fights! Example: I set Neptune to cast regen on herself 30% of the time, but she cast it when she was perfectly healthy and during normal battles! Another example is that even though I have all three of them set to cast healing on themselves 100% of the time, when the conditions are met, this does not always occur! They also use the lowest healing spell even though the conditions meant they should have used a stronger one! Also, at level 33, I finally saw Compa revive someone for the FIRST TIME! This is a terrible AI implementation I don't need - I might need regen during boss fights, but only after I know if the boss is so powerful it would kill her otherwise, and that can't occur because the condition parameters are met when? At the beginning of the fight! I'd rather waste a turn making the choice of spending my resources wisely, or maybe even have a "recovery phase" part of each battle segment...

Seventh wrote:Yeah, this seems to be an odd thing about the dungeons, but it doesn't apply to all of them oddly enough, so in the cases it DID happen, I just tended to grind a little on the enemies and walk out or just blitz through them with run aways.

Really, how often do RPGs TELL you what level you should be for the dungeon? Even if it's just for the boss at the end and not the enemies (though I did fine just following the game's "guide") it's still pretty damn nice, all things considered.

How many RPGs restrict your adventuring to dungeons only, and recycled dungeons at that? Seeing as how there's no way to gain levels naturally through experiencing the course of the storyline itself, it would almost be required that the player be given some way to assess the need for grinding or level necessity. Also, I should think that the company that MADE the game should be able to accurately gauge the character levels needed in order to actually accomplish the dungeon without an abundance of difficulty - when it said "For 1-4 Characters, Level 5-8" on the front of an old D&D module (you may not remember, but TSR created the RPG genre of game at least 40 years ago), you knew approximately how difficult it was and whether your characters were ready... but then again, that is part of the dungeon balancing already discussed, and part of my gripe: for some dungeons the level recommendation does not give a reasonable expectation of the enemies, and in others, it is too low for a party of the three originals to take on at that level, or even noticeably higher. It shows poorly on a company that can't even accurately gauge its own product's in-game requirements, whoever actually made the game...

Seventh wrote:Well... To be fair, if you think about it, the monsters may be attacking twice, but you're attacking until your AP runs out. The monsters probably would think they're getting screwed over as much as you are. The way I see it, monsters are strong/have different stat builds than our characters, and their AP only lasts for two attacks. Pretty fair if you ask me.

No, fair would be giving the monsters an AP gauge commensurate with their levels. Also, we're not talking about bosses or other PCs / NPCs - these are random monsters. When monsters at 1st level can attack any party member twice while the party members at 1st level can barely take out one monster each, sometimes having to spend two character turns taking out a single monster, I hardly see that as "fair"... but then again, this isn't so much of a problem when the dungeon difficulty & level recommendations actually match!
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Re: How would you improve this game?

Postby Bishamon-ten » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:04 am

Seventh wrote:Really, except for a few things (like share info, admittedly) it's fairly straightforward for the most part. I can understand where you're coming from though.

I don't mind details - I love details, especially when it comes to a battle & leveling system - Disgaea 2 (PS2) was my first SRPG, and I've measured all others since against it (FF Tactics can't even come close - 10 minutes and I was done). The tutorials were in-depth, informative, and well-presented... not so in HDN - they were really bare-bones.

Seventh wrote:I think we all agree to some extent with you in regards to Nisa and Gust, but on the other hand, it IS kind of nice only having three party members for most of the game.

It is challenging having only three party members (thinks of FF7 or FF8), but at the same time, it is a blatant carrot on a stick (and slap in the face) if I am given party members which I CAN'T USE because the company wants you to buy them down the road - if I can't use them, then keep them the hell out of my party! In FF7 or 8, when I was given party members, I could actually use them, and I didn't have to "download" them later on - I got a full, complete game on the discs which I paid for at retail! If at a later point they weren't useable due to the storyline, then they were grayed out but eventually returned - if they died, they were gone permanently.

Seventh wrote:.... I take it you didn't actually play Disgaea 2 PSP. :roll: The Hanako that is DLC is Hanako from ten years in the future, who plays like a human character and is essentially a completely different character as far as gameplay (and even story) is concerned, and was a nice way to wrap up the "plot" of all of the DLC, which involved Hanako directly summoning all of the other characters. In the end, Hanako from the future tells her younger self off and warns her to make sure to send everyone home.

However, all of that said, the monster class Hanako is still there like she always was.

Actually, I DID play it - I own it as a digital download which I got on Day 1 PSN release! I haven't gotten that far because of all the other games that have come out since (I own too many game systems), plus the time investment necessary to get to that point is considerably more than I have been able to spend thus far. There is no explanation anywhere that this is a different Hanako (not even the character pic), which deceptively gives the impression (like I griped about) that in order to acquire her (original form) you have to buy her. All NISA had to do was state somewhere that this is a future / time-traveling Hanako (like you did) and I would have had no complaint at all.

Overall, I really love the game - the humor and references are just esoteric and quirky enough to give me plenty of laughs when I see old-school games and anime referenced in this modern parody:

Space Invaders - Pixelvader
Street Fighter - people beating up boxy cars / really cute Chinese girl with huge thighs
Tetris - box stacking / "Detris"
Sailor Moon - Neptune spouting that long battle-start spiel ending in "Oshokiyo!" / "I'll punish you!"
Neon Genesis Evangelion - Neptune "I musn't run away!" in Japanese over and over at battle start, just like Ikari Shinji ...and those are just a few examples!

What I listed are my gripes (some of which others have as well) that I think, if addressed, could have made it a perfect 10 for its core audience. Also, I appreciate setting me straight on the Disgaea 2 (PSP) DLC. :)
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Re: How would you improve this game?

Postby Justin iZ Here » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:15 am

give me gust and nisa...they are already on the disk i shouldn't have to pay for them....that's my only complaint

oh and the guard break bar should be fill slightly on attack, not fill automatically...that's it
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Re: How would you improve this game?

Postby vampko » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:19 am

All I have to say, is I find the game really easy. Maybe it's because I play on hard mode only? I can easily take on dungeons that are higher level than the recommended. And I can take out most monsters in one character turn. And, I'm not sure, but Bisha, it sounds like you don't take advantage of switching the item skills in the middle of combat?

You have some valid concerns, but the healing system is just different, and a lot of people are freaking out because of that. People are too used to the usual system. Which is why words like 'unnecessary' come into play. They feel that the way it was was just fine, so most any change is unneeded and therefore a burden.

And, about the party, it was mismarketing which messed with this. And, you don't have NIS, NISA, or GUST to blame because of this. IF/Compile Heart made the game. Sega published it. All those others did was get their company name in to make sure it was understood that their company image was being used. They probably had little to no involvement in the process. An example could be Trinity Universe. If you read the artbook, it says that Compile Heart/IF made ALL the characters. NIS and GUST had no hand in it. So, stop blaming unrelated companies please.
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Re: How would you improve this game?

Postby Ocyd » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:04 am

Justin iZ Here wrote:
Ocyd wrote:A strategy guide would've been nice. If for nothing else the peace of mind having one brings.

i dont see the need, the games whole explore(ish) system is menu based and the dungeons arnt that complex, just use monster call and explore to ur hearts content.

i can see it being useful as a checklist for the plat trophy but that's honestly it :? not worth the trouble or effort of anyone typing up or a company printing one.


I like having the useful data on hand, the strategy/ walkthrough stuff was never the draw for me. Although double jumps books were fun to read if I couldn't muster up the enthusiasm to actually play the game.or the power was out. Some dungeons though monster call only draws one kind of monster or all except one kind it's not entirely reliable. Besides the game spoils you by training you to run through the dungeuons in a couple minutes. I didn't even know they dropped stuff till I'd had the game for a week or more :lol:
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