Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEEE)

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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby Mirai » Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:55 am

"Allow me to cut through those words!!" *Slash*...

GoldStarz wrote:*insert "sore wa chigau yo" here*

First of all, Fuyu's suffering isn't self-inflected. Yeah, he totally meant to kill Mahiru, but that's the thing he planned to kill Mahiru. He knew he was gonna get caught, and he was content with that if it meant doing what he felt was the honorable thing of holding an eye for an eye for his sister's death. The problem is, Peko knew he would get caught and wasn't about to let him sacrifice himself so she stepped in and killed Mahiru herself. If Fuyu had killed Mahiru himself, that would've been self-inflicted, Peko stepping in was entirely outside of his control.


Yes it is self-inflicted and allow me to explain, Kuzuryuu Did not truly want to kill Mahiru! despite taking her to the beach-house, he started to interrogate her about the picture/documents he had received from completing "Twilight", now if he truly wanted to kill her, then why did he bother to interrogate her in the first place? Its because deep down he didn't want to. Then after getting nowhere with her, Peko "believed" he was going to kill her and did the job herself. Kuzuryuu was shocked to see this. In the end Peko herself didn't understand Kuzuryuu's feelings and this is because Kuzuryuu kept treating her poorly to the point she thought she was a "tool" for him, despite them supposedly being "childhood friends". In conclusion it leads to him being at fault, regarding Mahiru's death as if he hadn't mistreated Peko and they truly understood each other, Peko would never have thought "he's going to kill her, I must do it myself to protect him".

GoldStarz wrote:As for not redeeming himself, you must dislike Chapter 3 to the point of blocking it out because that's literally ALL Fuyuhiko does. His reintroduction of himself, his seppuku scene, his volunteering at the hospital; all of that is just so that everyone can forgive him for acting the way he has and causing the Second Trial to occur. He literally thinks his life means nothing after the incident because he's only alive from Peko's sacrifice (twice over). In Chapter 4, he attempts to talk to Akane about what happened with Nekomaru because he knows that she blames herself for him becoming a robot because he'd felt the same way after Peko died and encourages her to still make the most of their time together (even if Akane isn't hearing any of this, but that's an entirely different story). My point is saying that Fuyu does nothing to redeem himself is more along the lines of how Hiyoko acted in Chapter 3, ignorant and blindly belligerent.


Actually you couldn't be more wrong, I actually quite enjoyed Chapter 3 overall. "he never does anything to truly redeem himself for his actions." "truly" being the key word, I don't dispute that Kuzuryuu "tries" to redeem himself but in the end he didn't do enough. For me to have been satisfied these two tropes were required: Heroic Sacrifice & Redemption Equals Death if that happened then I would of been happy and it would of shown me just how much he had changed since he first appeared. And yes Hiyoko was behaving "so" unreasonably in this chapter towards Kuzuryuu, I mean she not only had her friend killed, but she was also framed for her death thanks to him and she was acting hostile towards him? "How disgraceful and unreasonable Hiyoko is!" :roll:


GoldStarz wrote:Like, I'm not even gonna waste my time with that one, that's literally the opposite of true. Fuyu makes it very clear that if he's gonna make it, he wants to make it as him, not as the Kuzuryu Clan's heir. I mean, that's literally a plot point. That's why Peko wasn't revealed as his bodyguard until she was already voted out. He wants none of his family's power to help win him over (also, honestly i think togami's other talents were just kinda a fluke and he really was chosen because he was a rich heir but that's really nothing anyone can prove).


Notice the part I Bolded in the quote here? Now let's see what you wrote below...

His beginning personality isn't real, it's just a mask he wears so that he can seem threatening and live up to the hype built up around him.


Do you see how you've contradicted yourself? On one hand you're saying Kuzuryuu makes it "very clear" who he wants to be as an individual and on the other you say he's hiding his true personality to live up to his family's name/reputation. Well which one is it? You can't have it both ways here. You see here you've defended Kuzuryuu to the point, you not only contradicted yourself, but you've also denounced Togami's talents saying it was a "fluke", which is not true.


GoldStarz wrote:Edit: Also, you're still not explaining how they're the same type of character? I think your problem maybe you just pushing the right block into the wrong hole.


Well I thought this was rather self-explanatory, but okay then, to put it simply they're both arrogant Jerks. Except in my eyes one is done successfully and the other unsuccessfully. You see when an arrogant/jerk type of character is in the story, I expect them to be at least one of the following: Badass, Talented, Mighty and/or Intelligent. In other words I expect them to "make-up" for their arrogant attitude. In Togami's case he is rather successful, as he's not only one of the most talented characters in the series, he's also clever on top of that. Whereas Kuzuryuu isn't anything special, as you said yourself, 'his arrogant personality is just a mask so he can seem threatening'. Now to me a character that can't "make-up" for their arrogant attitude shouldn't be one in the first place and therefore fail ("bark but no bite"). Hence why I call him a fail-version of a Togami-like character (arrogant jerks.)

GoldStarz wrote:Yes. That is literally the point? His beginning personality isn't real, it's just a mask he wears so that he can seem threatening and live up to the hype built up around him.While he is totally capable of killing someone, the act very clearly mentally disturbs him and him killing Sato is more than likely what lead to him becoming Ultimate Despair in the first place. Essentially, Fuyu CAN be that person, but he doesn't WANT to be that person.


Yes exactly and that's why I don't like him. As I said in my first paragraph he isn't truly capable of killing someone, as deep down he doesn't want to. I doubt he killed Sato, as firstly "Twilight" game doesn't show you which character did it, only implies it was Kuzuryuu and secondly considering how the 2nd case went, it seems more likely Peko was the one who killed her. The most Fuzuryuu can do is behave like a "Yakuza" but when it comes to performing Yakuza-like deeds he backs down and gets Peko to do all his dirty work.

Well there's a longer answer to this topic but before I finish let me ask this question to everyone here. What is morally worse? An accomplice to a murder, or a verbal bully?
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby ZekeFreek » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:03 am

I can't even begin to describe what a warped interpretation that is.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby Mirai » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:55 am

ZekeFreek wrote:I can't even begin to describe what a warped interpretation that is.


An excellent counter-argument ZekeFreek 5/5 :D. I mean next time someone suggests their own policy
on something they've talked about for the last 20-30 minutes, I'll simply respond with " I don't even know where to begin Guy X, your opinion is so twisted."

Yeah its rather insulting to type just one line in response to a several paragraph post, I'd rather you just kept it to yourself, you could of at least said as an example. "Your interpretation here is rather warped Mirai, because its clear as day that Kuzuryuu was definitely going to kill Mahiru and Peko stepped in to protect him. No fault lies with Kuzuryuu here and I don't understand how you can come to the conclusion that it is his fault in anyway." Which is probably one of the things you would of said and a similar response I'm expecting from GoldStarz.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby ZekeFreek » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:05 am

All that line is supposed to say is that I actually need time to sort out a counterargument.

But I see picking up subtext isn't in your skillset.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby Mirai » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:14 am

ZekeFreek wrote:All that line is supposed to say is that I actually need time to sort out a counterargument.

But I see picking up subtext isn't in your skillset.


Nope it isn't, not when you type something that subtle. As well as you could of waited until you have finished typing it out before posting, (if you still intend to)
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby ZekeFreek » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:17 am

I suppose I could've, yeah.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby GoldStarz » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:50 pm

GoldStarz is away from the office right now, but he does have time to say Fuyu's ambitions were true as they remained consistent even after Ch 2 and was the motivator for his separation from Peko in the first place and that Fuyu's own testimony confirms that (also yeah, he didn't want to kill her, but he also was raised to think that he was honor-bound to repay his sister (she really needs an official name)'s death by killing those responsible for killing her and hiding the truth of her murder.

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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby ZekeFreek » Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:20 pm

You could call his sense of honor stupid, but I personally think that'd be a little culturally insensitive.

Yakuza are known to dabble in filial impiety from time to time. It's a hard concept for westerners to wrap their heads around, and I feel it may be partial responsible for this divide of interpretation.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby vampko » Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:43 pm

Yakuza are criminals. I wouldn't take what the Yakuza do as a way to "culturally represent" Japan. Yes, it represents a facet of criminals in Japan. And that's what he was.

Back to something or other else, to keep it short (as I'm mentally drained right now), I don't agree with Mirai about him not doing stuff to "truly" redeem himself. I mean, taking your own life is comparable to running away. It's only truly redeeming if you live a life to honor that person who you killed. Makes no sense probably, but I just don't see death as any sort of "redemption" really.

I do like the point made that Hiyoko's attitude towards him was pretty understandable. I mean, you gotta remember only like 20 days passed on that island. Most people take months AT THE VERY LEAST to get over someone's death. Many take years. Especially when it's someone you feel a close relationship towards.

I'd have to say that the comparison to Byakuya, while interesting, I find a bit too stretching. He didn't really come off as a "know-it-all", he just came off as a "I don't want to associate" sort of person. I don't really recall him ever saying that he knew anything, or even really referencing his family till chapter 2's trial. Could just be bad memory at work there though.

I saw him as, as I have said many many times now, just a big ol tsundere. Trying to act like he didn't care about anyone or getting close to anyone, but still secretly trying to get close to others/join in on things.

I agree with the likelihood of Peko having killed whomever that was. Fuyuhiko just doesn't' really have it in him to carry out a kill himself. He can set up a plan and begin to initiate something, but he just won't follow through. Though, the UD Fuyuhiko probably would. Pre-UD though? Not likely.

And it didn't end up being short at all :lol:
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby ZekeFreek » Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:04 pm

Yakuza are criminals. I wouldn't take what the Yakuza do as a way to "culturally represent" Japan. Yes, it represents a facet of criminals in Japan. And that's what he was.


Filial Impiety is an facet of all East Asian cultures. I was only relating it to the Yakuza as an example of a modern-day "family with power".

And remember, in Japan, taking one's own life in the face of great shame IS seen as honorable (Yes, even today). From their cultural perspective, that IS atonement, whether you agree with it or not.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby vampko » Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:27 pm

ZekeFreek wrote:
Yakuza are criminals. I wouldn't take what the Yakuza do as a way to "culturally represent" Japan. Yes, it represents a facet of criminals in Japan. And that's what he was.


Filial Impiety is an facet of all East Asian cultures. I was only relating it to the Yakuza as an example of a modern-day "family with power".

And remember, in Japan, taking one's own life in the face of great shame IS seen as honorable (Yes, even today). From their cultural perspective, that IS atonement, whether you agree with it or not.

But taking someone else's life for keeping quiet about something? I dunno. He was in the Yakuza, they are in some ways a strong representation of traditional old Japan. But, really, while Japan definitely maintains the honer/dishonor system in their culture it's not as much like the samurai age as it is for the Yakuza.

I definitely get that he'd feel responsibility for whatever, but even he didn't want to kill Mahiru. So, if even a top-ranking Yakuza is against it, doesn't that kinda mean that it's not exactly something that was set in stone?

And there're obviously those in Japan who think the "Honor" system has issues, as much of the media outputted by the Japanese puts it down. Much also makes it seem important too.

Of course, if you're talking about him taking his own life? Even if it's a cultural thing, doesn't mean I have to agree with it. it's a logical fact that once you're dead you can't do anything. So, dying doesn't solve anything. It doesn't bring anyone back. It doesn't make it so the pain never happened. All of that is still there. And this killing will only bring in a furthering of a cycle. I mean, there are laws against killing people (including yourself), even if it's "for honor". So, obviously, it's not something that's just accepted by the public.

I don't even know where I'm going with this anymore....I do understand the culture behind it, but even the people he was with didn't want him killing himself. So I think it's perfectly fair for me to think that him killing himself would have been stupid.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby ZekeFreek » Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:28 pm

You don't have to agree with it, but refusing to accept it for the sake of the narrative being delivered means you are intentionally refusing to accept a character's mindset and motivation. This game was made by Japanese people, for Japanese people primarily, so accepting cultural values you disagree with for the sake of the art is kind of expected.

To a Japanese person, his actions were not stupid. A little out of fashion? Maybe, but understandable given their cultural values.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby GoldStarz » Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:08 pm

Mirai wrote:"Allow me to cut through those words!!" *Slash*...

Yes it is self-inflicted and allow me to explain, Kuzuryuu Did not truly want to kill Mahiru! despite taking her to the beach-house, he started to interrogate her about the picture/documents he had received from completing "Twilight", now if he truly wanted to kill her, then why did he bother to interrogate her in the first place? Its because deep down he didn't want to. Then after getting nowhere with her, Peko "believed" he was going to kill her and did the job herself. Kuzuryuu was shocked to see this. In the end Peko herself didn't understand Kuzuryuu's feelings and this is because Kuzuryuu kept treating her poorly to the point she thought she was a "tool" for him, despite them supposedly being "childhood friends". In conclusion it leads to him being at fault, regarding Mahiru's death as if he hadn't mistreated Peko and they truly understood each other, Peko would never have thought "he's going to kill her, I must do it myself to protect him".


Addressed this, Fuyu outright said he was going to; Peko didn't even step in until he reached for the bat.

Actually you couldn't be more wrong, I actually quite enjoyed Chapter 3 overall. "he never does anything to truly redeem himself for his actions." "truly" being the key word, I don't dispute that Kuzuryuu "tries" to redeem himself but in the end he didn't do enough. For me to have been satisfied these two tropes were required: Heroic Sacrifice & Redemption Equals Death if that happened then I would of been happy and it would of shown me just how much he had changed since he first appeared. And yes Hiyoko was behaving "so" unreasonably in this chapter towards Kuzuryuu, I mean she not only had her friend killed, but she was also framed for her death thanks to him and she was acting hostile towards him? "How disgraceful and unreasonable Hiyoko is!" :roll:


I'm not blaming Hiyoko for not forgiving him, I'm blaming her for not even acknowledging that Fuyu is trying to apologize to her.

Also, you're literally saying "the only way I'd like him is if he died", and let's be honest here, him dying wouldn't actually change anything for you. Like I'm fine with you hating/disliking the character, but if you're gonna hate a character for no real reason (at least, you've yet to actually supply a half decently-formed reason) then at least just own up to it. Either way, if the only way you'd have liked Fuyu's development... Is if he didn't have his development, well I don't even know why we're debating this, because that means you're clearly not willing to actually go through with this if your points are proven wrong.

GoldStarz wrote:Like, I'm not even gonna waste my time with that one, that's literally the opposite of true. Fuyu makes it very clear that if he's gonna make it, he wants to make it as him, not as the Kuzuryu Clan's heir. I mean, that's literally a plot point. That's why Peko wasn't revealed as his bodyguard until she was already voted out. He wants none of his family's power to help win him over (also, honestly i think togami's other talents were just kinda a fluke and he really was chosen because he was a rich heir but that's really nothing anyone can prove).


Notice the part I Bolded in the quote here? Now let's see what you wrote below...

His beginning personality isn't real, it's just a mask he wears so that he can seem threatening and live up to the hype built up around him.


Do you see how you've contradicted yourself? On one hand you're saying Kuzuryuu makes it "very clear" who he wants to be as an individual and on the other you say he's hiding his true personality to live up to his family's name/reputation. Well which one is it? You can't have it both ways here. You see here you've defended Kuzuryuu to the point, you not only contradicted yourself, but you've also denounced Togami's talents saying it was a "fluke", which is not true.


No I haven't, I literally never said that, although for what it's worth, that's not even a contradiction, and is pretty well summed up. The reason he wants to build up his own power and rely on himself is so that he is worthy of the Kuzuryuu name. He wants people to respect him as an individual and not just as a member of the Kuzu Clan, so that he is worth of being the heir to the clan because he himself doubts his abilities to run the clan.

Also we know that's a part of his actual personality because *points to chapter 2* literally the plot.

As for Byakuya, it's not not true. We literally don't know. We know why he thinks he was chosen, not actually why.

Well I thought this was rather self-explanatory, but okay then, to put it simply they're both arrogant Jerks. Except in my eyes one is done successfully and the other unsuccessfully. You see when an arrogant/jerk type of character is in the story, I expect them to be at least one of the following: Badass, Talented, Mighty and/or Intelligent. In other words I expect them to "make-up" for their arrogant attitude. In Togami's case he is rather successful, as he's not only one of the most talented characters in the series, he's also clever on top of that. Whereas Kuzuryuu isn't anything special, as you said yourself, 'his arrogant personality is just a mask so he can seem threatening'. Now to me a character that can't "make-up" for their arrogant attitude shouldn't be one in the first place and therefore fail ("bark but no bite"). Hence why I call him a fail-version of a Togami-like character (arrogant jerks.)


You talk like there's only one type of Jerk character, considering you've shown that you know what TV Tropes is, I suggest you look up just how many Jerk character types there and then get back to us on that.

Yes exactly and that's why I don't like him. As I said in my first paragraph he isn't truly capable of killing someone, as deep down he doesn't want to. I doubt he killed Sato, as firstly "Twilight" game doesn't show you which character did it, only implies it was Kuzuryuu and secondly considering how the 2nd case went, it seems more likely Peko was the one who killed her. The most Fuzuryuu can do is behave like a "Yakuza" but when it comes to performing Yakuza-like deeds he backs down and gets Peko to do all his dirty work.


Again, we know he is, we just also know he didn't want to. We have no indication in the game that anyone other than Fuyu was there when Sato died. You want to talk about things being not true and then you get even more speculative then I do. I mean, at least my speculation was a side note that didn't affect the argument.

Well there's a longer answer to this topic but before I finish let me ask this question to everyone here. What is morally worse? An accomplice to a murder, or a verbal bully?


... Are you asking me to choose between whether Mahiru or Hiyoko died now?

Seriously though, obviously the accomplice, bullying is a horrible thing to do to someone, but outright murder goes way beyond that and helping someone get away with murder is almost as insidious. Admittedly, Mahiru was coerced into doing it because she pretty clearly had a thing for Sato, but even still she committed a crime that helped cover up the fact that Fuyu's Sis's (again why doesn't she have a name?!) murder wasn't random and that her murderer was a student herself.

Edit: I'm sorry if you're disappointed and was expecting a bigger counterargument. Frankly, I am, too. I was expecting a better one.

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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby ZekeFreek » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:50 pm

I feel like we're arguing against people who had a bad first impression of Fuyuhiko and therefore refused to actually pay attention to what the game was telling them.

Thus we're arguing against Strawman Fuyuhiko.

@GoldStarz Not canon, but some people refer to his sister as "Fuyuki" to match her brother's name. Since she doesn't have a canon name, I figure it's a good enough substitute.
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Re: Talking about Hiyoko and Fuyu (SPOILERS EVERYWHERRRREEEE

Postby vampko » Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:57 am

ZekeFreek wrote:You don't have to agree with it, but refusing to accept it for the sake of the narrative being delivered means you are intentionally refusing to accept a character's mindset and motivation. This game was made by Japanese people, for Japanese people primarily, so accepting cultural values you disagree with for the sake of the art is kind of expected.

To a Japanese person, his actions were not stupid. A little out of fashion? Maybe, but understandable given their cultural values.

Maybe I forgot to mention it? But I do not agree in the least that Fuyuhiko didn't do everything he could to redeem himself. He did everything he could. My problem isn't with that. It's with him just instantly switching from one side to the other. That doesn't make him a bad character in the absolute sense, it's just a boring thing for myself. I enjoy much more watching a character struggle against the change and slowly becoming a better person. Which is what Hiyoko was doing. Her struggle appeared less heartfelt because of the fact that she wasn't someone who could just flip a switch and be okay. It doesn't matter what caused that switch to flip, it still was an overnight change basically.

GoldStarz wrote:I'm not blaming Hiyoko for not forgiving him, I'm blaming her for not even acknowledging that Fuyu is trying to apologize to her.

She did, just not openly. She was struggling with the feelings of forgiving Fuyuhiko and "dishonoring Mahiru's death", or "honoring Mahiru's death" and refusing to do what she knew Mahiru would really want. As well as battling against her own self-nature that was built up over her entire life.

ZekeFreek wrote:I feel like we're arguing against people who had a bad first impression of Fuyuhiko and therefore refused to actually pay attention to what the game was telling them.

This isn't correct. I actually thought Fuyuhiko was pretty darn entertaining originally. Watching him be all Tsun tsun made him a pretty interesting character to me. But then that just completely dropped. And I really lost a lot of my interest in him. I personally think they should have kept some of the tsun throughout. A male tsundere can be a lot of fun too, but Spike or the writer or whatever, kinda robbed us of that once Peko died :(
あの巨人シノはあんたたちの金髪少女の髪を食べたいな顔をしてるよ
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[06:46:27] <Solice> you're like dealing with a bag of rabid cats
Zdood: You are who you are. And you are a captain at the wheel of an easily-sinkable fleet of ships made of duct tape.
Spoiler:
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