Hot Topic Game Discussion

A place for everybody to talk about anything game-related.
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razisgosu
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Re: Censorship in Games

Postby razisgosu » Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:26 pm

People make a big deal about what's important to them. Having all the games content available to them is important to a lot of people.

I don't like it when it has no reason to happen. Good examples being Nintendo games. Bravely Default/Bravely Second, Fire Emblem Awakening, Fire Emblem Fates, Xenoblade Chronicles X, very likely Tokyo Mirage, etc. Additionally Monster Monpiece and Mugen Souls would fall into this category for me. None of the changes being made in any of those games had any reason to be made. That kind of censorship annoys me and is the quickest way for me to complain and opt to not purchase your game. I want my games content in the same state as it was released in its original state. Story translated, art assets remain the same, audio remains the same, etc. This does not 100% mean I won't get the game, but it won't be at retail price and it may not even be a new copy, it may be a used copy so the publisher does not see my money.

Censorship I find tolerable and am willing to let slide depending on the content and circumstances is another story. Examples here being Criminal Girls, Senran Kagura, Dungeon Traveler's 2. Atlus and NISA communicated that releasing an uncensored version could get the game canned entirely. While many question Atlus and NISA on this regard, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that changes were kept to a minimum. Admittedly Senran Kagura should technically fall in the paragraph above's category because ages were removed due to internal comfort level at XSEED, but seeing as ages being removed and that they're readily available online this change was not significant enough for me to decide against a purchase. I still might end up ignoring a release if the censorship in this category is too much. I bounced back and forth on a Criminal Girls purchase because quite honestly it was a fairly significant amount of censorship and I pray that Criminal Girls 2 will see less or none. Given that Gal Gun and Estival Versus are left completely in tact I don't think there should be a problem releasing it uncensored.

In short, if it's unneeded censorship I will complain and very likely opt out of a purchase or opt out of giving money to the publisher in question. If it's censorship the publisher is claiming is necessary to release the game, I will think about how much the censorship means to me personally and make a decision based on that.

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Re: Censorship in Games

Postby Nuhji » Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:59 am

Well there are many problems when it comes to censorship and it'll likely just keep getting worse if we keep allowing companies to do (ie FEF got quite a few changes beyond just bonding stuff), which is why I greatly dislike it and have just grown so tired of it

I can agree with razis about minor changes for the most part

One of the big issues I find with this kind of thing are that these censors likely cater more to those who wouldn't purchase it anyway and just want to complain (with some complaints being pretty moot imo since it's all fiction and if we listened to these kinds of people it would limit creativity)
Some may be potential buyers ofc, but in some cases those people need to realize some of these things can be totally optional (ie. bonding in FEF)

Another one of the big issues I have is that these changes effect the player experience or player choice (Bravely Second being an example of the former, and XCX being an example of the latter, FEF also having some in both)

And there is another aspect, but I'm pretty sure it's a topic we're not allowed to talk about here
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Re: Censorship in Games

Postby Alantor2013 » Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:13 am

Nuhji wrote:Well there are many problems when it comes to censorship and it'll likely just keep getting worse if we keep allowing companies to do (ie FEF got quite a few changes beyond just bonding stuff), which is why I greatly dislike it and have just grown so tired of it

I can agree with razis about minor changes for the most part

One of the big issues I find with this kind of thing are that these censors likely cater more to those who wouldn't purchase it anyway and just want to complain (with some complaints being pretty moot imo since it's all fiction and if we listened to these kinds of people it would limit creativity)
Some may be potential buyers ofc, but in some cases those people need to realize some of these things can be totally optional (ie. bonding in FEF)

Another one of the big issues I have is that these changes effect the player experience or player choice (Bravely Second being an example of the former, and XCX being an example of the latter, FEF also having some in both)

And there is another aspect, but I'm pretty sure it's a topic we're not allowed to talk about here


That's true. It's okay to be mad at censorship and the problems it has with games. I understand your feelings about this, but like I said, I don't mind censorship and I'm entitled to my opinion.
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Re: Censorship in Games

Postby razisgosu » Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:48 am

I don't think anyone was saying you aren't entitled to your opinion.

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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby lopez » Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:07 am

It's really hard to make any meaningful points without having verifiable statistical evidence on the target audience(s) and actual sales figure demographics.

Also, there're numerous factors that affect why something is/isn't "censored" outside of simple ratings boards and "what demographic X thinks" arguments.

Also, it seems like "creative freedom" is used too loosely when trying to defend things that get "censored." I really wish a developer or two would make a documentary focusing on the inception process, from corporate/executive/board approval, milestones, focus groups, demographic data analysis, to finalizing the product, meeting deadlines, cutting ideas/content for X reason, and ultimately getting the product into gamer's hands. It would be a very enlightening read, especially for those who defend "creative freedom" so heavily.

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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby Nuhji » Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:22 am

lopez wrote:Also, it seems like "creative freedom" is used too loosely when trying to defend things that get "censored." I really wish a developer or two would make a documentary focusing on the inception process, from corporate/executive/board approval, milestones, focus groups, demographic data analysis, to finalizing the product, meeting deadlines, cutting ideas/content for X reason, and ultimately getting the product into gamer's hands. It would be a very enlightening read, especially for those who defend "creative freedom" so heavily.


actually the MH thing at GDC2016 I think actually talks a bit into this (albeit unrelated to censors as it's just about localization)

he actually made mention of ideas for changes he wanted, but were rejected due to certain other aspects despite them liking the ideas (and he came to also wonder if maybe he was being selfish with it though), which I liked his ideas, but I personally would've preferred instead of replacing a page to just adding a page for where those ideas would be put
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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby lopez » Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:37 am

I'll have to look that over.

I also found the mobile game "Game Dev Story" to be a nice generalization of gaming development, for the layperson.

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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby Prinny Supervisor » Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:40 am

lopez wrote:I really wish a developer or two would make a documentary focusing on the inception process, from corporate/executive/board approval, milestones, focus groups, demographic data analysis, to finalizing the product, meeting deadlines, cutting ideas/content for X reason, and ultimately getting the product into gamer's hands. It would be a very enlightening read, especially for those who defend "creative freedom" so heavily.


If there weren't so many NDAs and business relationships to consider, I would love, just love to show you guys how something like Criminal Girls comes from a finalized Japanese product to a finalized localized product. I have a pretty strong feeling that, if you all just saw all the emails, the sales figures, the meetings that took place internally, the meetings that took place with the ratings boards, the programming, the debug process...most complaints would be either directed at the right parties or silenced entirely.

Here's just a glimpse: going through hundreds of images to try to determine what's a mons pubis and what's just shading.
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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby razisgosu » Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:38 pm

Not much to go on, but that is interesting insight into the topic.

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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby redsilversnake » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:15 pm

NDAs are definitely one thing the industry just needs to cut back on. Having some things you don't want your competition to know is to be expected, but it really seems like even innocuous stuff gets covered.
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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby Seventh » Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:40 pm

Prinny Supervisor wrote:
lopez wrote:I really wish a developer or two would make a documentary focusing on the inception process, from corporate/executive/board approval, milestones, focus groups, demographic data analysis, to finalizing the product, meeting deadlines, cutting ideas/content for X reason, and ultimately getting the product into gamer's hands. It would be a very enlightening read, especially for those who defend "creative freedom" so heavily.


If there weren't so many NDAs and business relationships to consider, I would love, just love to show you guys how something like Criminal Girls comes from a finalized Japanese product to a finalized localized product. I have a pretty strong feeling that, if you all just saw all the emails, the sales figures, the meetings that took place internally, the meetings that took place with the ratings boards, the programming, the debug process...most complaints would be either directed at the right parties or silenced entirely.

Here's just a glimpse: going through hundreds of images to try to determine what's a mons pubis and what's just shading.
What I've seen recently is that at least some Japanese companies seem to have a bigger tendency of just not saying anything and letting people think what they want. Is it that sort of thing? Or is that... kind of the question you can't answer, I'm guessing?

Like I said back with Monpiece, a localization at all is better than none. Those or ones like with Criminal Girls, I'm not really as bothered by - I think those... to most should be something you can kind of see by looking at. It's other ones, and probably combined with what seems like the sheer frequency of them lately (which arguably could be a point to the fact that more games are coming over rather than being ignored) that's probably getting at least some people more and more riled up. I dunno.
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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby Scumbadsoldier » Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:58 am

Prinny Supervisor wrote:
lopez wrote:I really wish a developer or two would make a documentary focusing on the inception process, from corporate/executive/board approval, milestones, focus groups, demographic data analysis, to finalizing the product, meeting deadlines, cutting ideas/content for X reason, and ultimately getting the product into gamer's hands. It would be a very enlightening read, especially for those who defend "creative freedom" so heavily.


If there weren't so many NDAs and business relationships to consider, I would love, just love to show you guys how something like Criminal Girls comes from a finalized Japanese product to a finalized localized product. I have a pretty strong feeling that, if you all just saw all the emails, the sales figures, the meetings that took place internally, the meetings that took place with the ratings boards, the programming, the debug process...most complaints would be either directed at the right parties or silenced entirely.

Here's just a glimpse: going through hundreds of images to try to determine what's a mons pubis and what's just shading.

Given the D rating, I'd bet that they're all the latter, but I could be wrong.

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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby lopez » Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:47 pm

With how viral social media has become, things like NDA's are a basic necessity.

Makes me wonder, when did localization changes become such a hypersensitive issue?

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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby xizro345 » Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:50 pm

They've always been this way. Simply people are more vocal.

Also, despite being "on the other side of the fence" regarding anime localization - working for an anime importer company while I was attending university years ago, something that often brings up similar controversies, I still say the "you don't know what happens behind the scenes" argument pointless. No, I don't know - and it shouldn't matter. The localization can be good or poor regardless of the circumstances that led to certain choices.

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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby Ringwraith » Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:14 pm

I think the argument is that it's very hard to have constructive discussions over localisations when a lot of it is just so completely locked down and cannot be discussed.
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