Hot Topic Game Discussion

A place for everybody to talk about anything game-related.
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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby vampko » Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:33 am

lopez wrote:What are your thoughts on crowdfunding, in-regard to game development?

it's nice because consumers have way more pull on what's out there than before.

It's terrible because consumers have way more pull on what's out there than before.


xD

Semi-joke aside: The main problem is that investors need to realize they're investors, and not that they're buying a finished product. They're doing the job of publishers basically. Which means they could end up with holes in their pockets if things go wrong. Especially when the listee doesn't say something like "the product is essentially finished, I just have some finishing touches/etc", even more especially if the listee states that it's just now beginning development, or like 10% in. It has zero guarantee to come out like advertised. An investor should always expect a product to be at least 10% worse than it was pitched to them. Expecting even further of a drop is even better. Never let the imagination go wild with what it could be. That's the job of the developer.

There will be older builds that may look "better" in comparison to newer builds. This could be because the engine had to be tweaked to better accommodate the budget. It's easy to think "oh I can make it like this!" early on, but then learn that won't suffice for the size of the project that's being made.

Finally, I really do think it's great that crowd-funding is bringing in so many ideas that probably wouldn't have seen the light of day with a publisher-only/do it all out of your pockets only market. It definitely creates problems in that these kickstarters often ask for lots of feedback and act on that, and people generelly don't actually know what they want, but think they know what they want. That's pretty much the explanation of the first statement I made.

It, of course, can also lead to things like "Ant Simulator" where people be sleazy and run off with the money. Or any situation where the product is kickstarted, but ends up dying. Sometimes the listee gives refunds, but they're not really under obligation to do so, and could get away without. That's how investment works. Sometimes it just doesn't work out. It's not like going to a store and buying an already released game. And that's the most important thing that people who are investing in crowdfunding ventures need to remember.
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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby xizro345 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:14 am

lopez wrote:What are your thoughts on crowdfunding, in-regard to game development?


Sort of abused nowadays, though sometimes it's licensors that require it (see certain VN's localization efforts).
Before funding something, it's always important to check the team, what they want to do, their experience and the budget asked. And even with that sometimes it may still fail.

I backed a few projects and I'm about 50% satisfied (most of them were released, but one didn't live up at all for other reasons).

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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby lopez » Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:59 pm

So, now that's VR is gaining momentum, what are your thoughts? Will it be a gaming revolution or another fad?

Many people are becoming are believers after their time with the current VR models.

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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby shadowmaksim » Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:08 pm

At this point, I still think VR is mostly a fad.

I haven't seen every game in the library but pretty much all that I have seen aren't all that complex per-se. It's like when the Wii came out and the motion controls were mostly used either for gimmicks or minigames. VR games are still basically at that level as far I've seen. But that's usually the case in the beginning for whenever a new device such as this releases.

I do think that it could progress to be something more. But that really depends on whether or not there are developers willing to undergo such a task and how the market for it ends up playing out.

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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby Rednal » Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:34 pm

I think it's currently a fad, but the expectations are that it will be a significant industry within the next four years or so. Probably not as big as mobile, but $20 billion seems likely. I think it helps that technology has advanced to the point that VR can be genuinely good.

I'm also interested in seeing what people do with Augmented Reality. ^^
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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby Prinny Supervisor » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:10 am

lopez wrote:What are your thoughts on crowdfunding, in-regard to game development?


I think it's a lot less useful than a lot of people realize, unfortunately.

Crowdfunding is not a cure-all for everything wrong with the industry today. It's a fantastic way to get indie devs or very small studios the resources they need to make their game, but it doesn't have any place in an established business structure.
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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby RandomR » Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:17 am

Rednal wrote:I'm also interested in seeing what people do with Augmented Reality. ^^

I'm definitely more interested in augmented reality than VR, my idea on the latter is pretty much similar to shadowmaksim's

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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby neonie » Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:24 am

I think VR is going to be a fad until or unless we can actually create, "The Simulation." Full Dive Virtual Reality experience has the potential to be a very real, very cool thing, with nigh infinite possibilities.

The scope of, "Screen VR." To me, seems so incredibly limited, (You literally can't even run around move naturally and you have to design things around VR, instead of it being a pure addition.) That I really can't see it becoming super big, nor can I envision a lot of people even trying it until it becomes very, very, cheap. Like less than $150, and even then, will people have the computers required to run it? Or will the world continue to move even more towards touch screen and phone style devices?

AR is a really cool idea... As a sci-fi plot device.
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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby The_Dood_Abides » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:26 am

I think VR could potentially lead to another video game crash like we saw in 1983. I don't understand why it's being touted as the next evolution in gaming or why so many companies are putting their eggs in that particular basket. As from the "wow" factor of being fully immersed in a game—which is a level of immersion that I think VR proponents are vastly overrating—what exactly does VR bring to the table as it pertains to video games? I can see how VR may be useful for fields like biology and astronomy, but video games? I'm not seeing the draw.
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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby Sleepyprinny99 » Fri Aug 12, 2016 2:22 pm

The_Dood_Abides wrote:I think VR could potentially lead to another video game crash like we saw in 1983. I don't understand why it's being touted as the next evolution in gaming or why so many companies are putting their eggs in that particular basket. As from the "wow" factor of being fully immersed in a game—which is a level of immersion that I think VR proponents are vastly overrating—what exactly does VR bring to the table as it pertains to video games? I can see how VR may be useful for fields like biology and astronomy, but video games? I'm not seeing the draw.



I think a part of it is less "reality" and more in "expectations".
Think about it like this...VR has been so thoroughly entrenched in pop culture and fiction as the standard in "futuresque" interactive entertainment above anything we could have now so why wouldn't some folks want to try and make that fiction a reality?

As a matter of general practicality though...I have my doubts it will reach past fad level for long while yet.
That said, the ideal of a "fully immersive experience" might be reason enough to try and hype it as the next evolution in gaming...though I feel we aren't even close to that if we're stuck using what we have now.

Gotta start somewhere though and branding it has a way of upping expectations even more, which make VR seem really plain gimmicky though.

I think a wait and see approach is a good stance here, but overall I'm still pretty skeptical.

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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby Sleepyprinny99 » Fri Aug 12, 2016 2:48 pm

Right...so I tried this before, but me being new and ignorant to forums is awkward...anyway...this is about censorship, particularly with content from Japan...but broadly, about censorship. I dunno, considering the less than pleasant climate by many a fan and countless posts by DS, TDA and others from the company end of things...I just got curious about what others, in the industry and similar positions, have to say.
The article is from Kotaku so I'll let you judge its credibility, but it's a good piece that talks about many perspectives on the issue from the point of view of localization, nevermind ratings boards.
Some views are similar to what NISA has said time and again.
Some views are in line with what many a fan assumes is the case about the industry, or at least an opinion from from those working in it currently.
...In short, not simple a subject here...but overall I think the piece does a decent job going over some of the most common issues here so I'd still encourage giving it a read....context is important, right?
Plus, the article ends with calling fir more upfront communication /discourse on changes made to content and why. Something Atlus has done and NISA is doing now...but not enough by the industry as a whole.

http://kotaku.com/from-japan-with-chang ... 1747960323

Thoughts?




(NOTE: I'm also keenly aware of a trends towards confirmation bias, but I still think this is worth talking about and sharing, plus recent trends in gaming localization do worry me a bit, and while I myself am against censorship...I can acknowledge its necessity at times. A tough issue here since where and when, nevermind *if it's okay is largely the crux of alot of these debates)

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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby neonie » Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:06 pm

Sleepyprinny99 wrote:Right...so I tried this before, but me being new and ignorant to forums is awkward...anyway...this is about censorship, particularly with content from Japan...but broadly, about censorship. I dunno, considering the less than pleasant climate by many a fan and countless posts by DS, TDA and others from the company end of things...I just got curious about what others, in the industry and similar positions, have to say.
The article is from Kotaku so I'll let you judge its credibility, but it's a good piece that talks about many perspectives on the issue from the point of view of localization, nevermind ratings boards.
Some views are similar to what NISA has said time and again.
Some views are in line with what many a fan assumes is the case about the industry, or at least an opinion from from those working in it currently.
...In short, not simple a subject here...but overall I think the piece does a decent job going over some of the most common issues here so I'd still encourage giving it a read....context is important, right?
Plus, the article ends with calling fir more upfront communication /discourse on changes made to content and why. Something Atlus has done and NISA is doing now...but not enough by the industry as a whole.

http://kotaku.com/from-japan-with-chang ... 1747960323

Thoughts?




(NOTE: I'm also keenly aware of a trends towards confirmation bias, but I still think this is worth talking about and sharing, plus recent trends in gaming localization do worry me a bit, and while I myself am against censorship...I can acknowledge its necessity at times. A tough issue here since where and when, nevermind *if it's okay is largely the crux of alot of these debates)


So, I actually have a few thoughts here. Let's play a game and see just how concise I can keep them.

-The title of that article really kind of says everything you need to know about both Patrick Klepek and Austin Walker, in order to understand where this article is coming from. If you've followed them in on Giant Bomb over the years, (Which I have.) You know exactly what I'm talking about. Not censorship, "Censorship."

Which brings to mind two Austin Walker quotes from the past year or so. Neither of these are from Patrick him self, but these two individuals share a very similar mindset and viewpoint, going off of their words. So without further adieu:

1. "It's not censorship!"

The prevailing idea in that, "Social." Censorship does not exist at all. They don't believe in censorship born out of culture or out societal pressure or up-bringing. They have both stood by the idea that, "Real." Censorship is done by the government, and we shouldn't, "Sully." The word censorship by using it to refer to these, "Petty." instances of, "Editing." when brought over in localization.

2. "I'm trying to be more open minded towards closed minded people like you!"

This line was said sarcastically, and in jest, but boy does it sum up precisely the entire crux of the social justice mindset. Which is basically, "I've already decided you're a closed minded person before this conversation has even began, and so know I am in the moral right, no matter what."

There is no such thing as a, "Moral Right."

-I've said all this to make this point: Patrick Klepek also made a video a few months ago when he made that article . I believe that they were meant to be a compliment to each other. You can go look for it on Youtube, if you desire. I don't really want to link to it. Both he and Austin try to appear to be neutral on video game censorship, but in reality they are not.

-Finally, while I can take a step back, and, in the very rare case where it is actually necessary, see the reason for censoring a game. (Criminal Girls being one of the only examples, that I can actually think of.) 90% of the time, I don't believe it is actually "Necessary."

Moralistic, Cultural, Societal, and other such nonsensical, nanny esq, "Think of the children, how dare you allow the camera be tilted to see this girls panties." Style of editing games, will never, ever, be ok in my eyes, and is nothing more than an insult to my intelligence as a grown adult with the ability to reason and form my own judgement and opinion on things my self.

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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby Sleepyprinny99 » Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:49 pm

neonie wrote:
Sleepyprinny99 wrote:Right...so I tried this before, but me being new and ignorant to forums is awkward...anyway...this is about censorship, particularly with content from Japan...but broadly, about censorship. I dunno, considering the less than pleasant climate by many a fan and countless posts by DS, TDA and others from the company end of things...I just got curious about what others, in the industry and similar positions, have to say.
The article is from Kotaku so I'll let you judge its credibility, but it's a good piece that talks about many perspectives on the issue from the point of view of localization, nevermind ratings boards.
Some views are similar to what NISA has said time and again.
Some views are in line with what many a fan assumes is the case about the industry, or at least an opinion from from those working in it currently.
...In short, not simple a subject here...but overall I think the piece does a decent job going over some of the most common issues here so I'd still encourage giving it a read....context is important, right?
Plus, the article ends with calling fir more upfront communication /discourse on changes made to content and why. Something Atlus has done and NISA is doing now...but not enough by the industry as a whole.

http://kotaku.com/from-japan-with-chang ... 1747960323

Thoughts?




(NOTE: I'm also keenly aware of a trends towards confirmation bias, but I still think this is worth talking about and sharing, plus recent trends in gaming localization do worry me a bit, and while I myself am against censorship...I can acknowledge its necessity at times. A tough issue here since where and when, nevermind *if it's okay is largely the crux of alot of these debates)


So, I actually have a few thoughts here. Let's play a game and see just how concise I can keep them.

-The title of that article really kind of says everything you need to know about both Patrick Klepek and Austin Walker, in order to understand where this article is coming from. If you've followed them in on Giant Bomb over the years, (Which I have.) You know exactly what I'm talking about. Not censorship, "Censorship."

Which brings to mind two Austin Walker quotes from the past year or so. Neither of these are from Patrick him self, but these two individuals share a very similar mindset and viewpoint, going off of their words. So without further adieu:

1. "It's not censorship!"

The prevailing idea in that, "Social." Censorship does not exist at all. They don't believe in censorship born out of culture or out societal pressure or up-bringing. They have both stood by the idea that, "Real." Censorship is done by the government, and we shouldn't, "Sully." The word censorship by using it to refer to these, "Petty." instances of, "Editing." when brought over in localization.

2. "I'm trying to be more open minded towards closed minded people like you!"

This line was said sarcastically, and in jest, but boy does it sum up precisely the entire crux of the social justice mindset. Which is basically, "I've already decided you're a closed minded person before this conversation has even began, and so know I am in the moral right, no matter what."

There is no such thing as a, "Moral Right."

-I've said all this to make this point: Patrick Klepek also made a video a few months ago when he made that article . I believe that they were meant to be a compliment to each other. You can go look for it on Youtube, if you desire. I don't really want to link to it. Both he and Austin try to appear to be neutral on video game censorship, but in reality they are not.

-Finally, while I can take a step back, and, in the very rare case where it is actually necessary, see the reason for censoring a game. (Criminal Girls being one of the only examples, that I can actually think of.) 90% of the time, I don't believe it is actually "Necessary."

Moralistic, Cultural, Societal, and other such nonsensical, nanny esq, "Think of the children, how dare you allow the camera be tilted to see this girls panties." Style of editing games, will never, ever, be ok in my eyes, and is nothing more than an insult to my intelligence as a grown adult with the ability to reason and form my own judgement and opinion on things my self.

"You will not go blind, for you already are."


@neonie
Thanks for the insight here. Just what I'm looking for in a good response.
To be clear...I agree on your views on censorship as a whole.

I'm of the mind morality should NEVER be a factor in the localization process. To put it another way, the only concern relevant to the process and decisions are those in line with what's ethically responsible as both a business and where localization concerns itself.

That said, and with no prior knowledge on the author, I was interested in the quotes and views of those in the field where I was actually interested in...views that offer that rare bit of insight on the issues behind edits from within the industry.

While I do feel, and agree, that censoring on social grounds is abhorrent, there are cases where cultural ambiguity can, and does call in the necessity of alteration to preserve inherent integrity that might be otherwise lost in translation...Adam Smith's example on FF X's Yuna and her final use of "arigatou" for one is extremely tricky here...a more recent(ish) example was the name change of Falcom's Legend of Heroes' title: Trails of Cold Steel. In Japan, "Sen no Kiseki" which loosely translates to "Trails in the Flash". Both titles are references to the "flash and glint of cold steel striking against eachother"...but "sen" and by extension, "flash", shows the awkwardness in translation with regards to naming and what is more likely to be associated by audiences' perceptual schema informed by their culture's broader contextual logic.

Apparently, ages in Senran Kagura caused a similar, but more extreme issue internally. Though I'm more for omitting ages over changing them in any case where it may be an issue. Tom Lipschultz's of XSEED major issue when it came to ages...and by comparison, something of a point of contention on the part of NoA when it came to Bravely Second so I hear.
I'm simply admitting to learning of its complexities inherent to culture and that social editing and censor occurs.

To be honest, quotes by Niche Gamer's editor in chief Brandon Orselli summed up how thorny just even this aspect is,

“It’s a catch-22 when trying to appeal for people who may not appreciate things alien to their culture goes and alienates the people who enjoy experiencing other cultures.”

Strict constructivist in mindset or not, it is a view many share in the community and where some arguments are based on.

To use another quote from the aricle commenting on Kenichiro Takaki, Senran Kagura's stances on the issue,

"Takaki is happy to defend his work in public, but not every developer can or will. If more developers did, it might lead to a better understanding on both sides of the argument."

It's something we *don't* see alot of here and really does bother me.

To bring this back to NISA, I feel that how CG 2 had been handled *is* a product of necessity in every sense here given what's happened, and I'm only talking about CG 2...but just like how societal censorship is very real, prevalent and abused...there are cases where, because of these issues and those inherent to the industry itself show that there aren't easy ways out of this and that you can't please everyone.

Personally, I don't care what the author thinks or feels...only that there was some pretty useful info in there and that it shed some insight into how complicated censorship is and that a lack of communication only adds fuel to the fire.

Look, I'll never agree with the removed audioin CG 2 (or any game really)or the removal or arbitrary alterations of content...NEVER.

Still, where and when these changes hapoen, and why...and whether they are arbitrarily done...are tough issues to negotiate here and ones that have to take into considerations beyond those of fans. It's regrettable and irritating, but a reality I think we are too eager to ignore in lieu of our personal opinions taking precedence over cases like CG 2.

Then again, it isn't like publishers/developers are exactly unified here....

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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby neonie » Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:37 pm

Sleepyprinny99 wrote:[Post.]


Yeah, sorry, I know that my post was mostly concerning the author, and that's not what you were looking for. I just feel like it's important to know where the information is coming from and how it's framed. To also clarify further, I don't hate either Patrick or Austin, I just very, very, much disagree with them on these issues.

Sleepyprinny99 wrote:Apparently, ages in Senran Kagura caused a similar, but more extreme issue internally. Though I'm more for omitting ages over changing them in any case where it may be an issue. Tom Lipschultz's of XSEED major issue when it came to ages...and by comparison, something of a point of contention on the part of NoA when it came to Bravely Second so I hear.
I'm simply admitting to learning of its complexities inherent to culture and that social editing and censor occurs.


This one to me, actually seems pretty cut and dry. According to Tom, the reason for the age changes came, not because of ratings boards or necessity, but because it made someone from on high feel, "Uncomfortable."

Therefore, that should not have happened. There is no good justification. "It makes me feel bad." Is the worst reason for censorship, and you don't belong anywhere near another countries games, as far as I'm concerned.

Sleepyprinny99 wrote:To be honest, quotes by Niche Gamer's editor in chief Brandon Orselli summed up how thorny just even this aspect is,

“It’s a catch-22 when trying to appeal for people who may not appreciate things alien to their culture goes and alienates the people who enjoy experiencing other cultures.”


I'm just going to right out and say I have a hard time relating to this catch-22. If you aren't one to appreciate things from other cultures, please stay away from Anime games. You can go watch your Game of Hunger or play your Gears of War Never Changes Effect of Us Watch. I won't bother you. So please just stay away from the things I enjoy.

Sleepyprinny99 wrote:To use another quote from the aricle commenting on Kenichiro Takaki, Senran Kagura's stances on the issue,

"Takaki is happy to defend his work in public, but not every developer can or will. If more developers did, it might lead to a better understanding on both sides of the argument."

It's something we *don't* see alot of here and really does bother me.


I will agree, with a bit of an addition:

They really shouldn't need to defend their work. There is nothing be done that needs to be defended. The idea that an artist needs to, "Defend." their art is already a huge problem that reeks of, "Guilty until proven innocent."

Sleepyprinny99 wrote:To bring this back to NISA, I feel that how CG 2 had been handled *is* a product of necessity in every sense here given what's happened, and I'm only talking about CG 2...but just like how societal censorship is very real, prevalent and abused...there are cases where, because of these issues and those inherent to the industry itself show that there aren't easy ways out of this and that you can't please everyone.


Again, CG is one of the very rare issues where I agree it was necessary. But I also believe it does count as societal censorship in this case. Not a decision of moralistic influence, but rather one of administrative influence. How society as a whole views an item determines it's context, and therefore it's rating. It's rating then determines whether or not a platform holder will allow it on their system, or a retailer will allow it to be sold. But again, in the case of Criminal Girls 2, I specifically don't think the problem lies with society or the ESRB, but the platform holders who will not allow adult products on their systems. Unfortunately, this means, "It can't be helped."

Sleepyprinny99 wrote:Still, where and when these changes hapoen, and why...and whether they are arbitrarily done...are tough issues to negotiate here and ones that have to take into considerations beyond those of fans. It's regrettable and irritating, but a reality I think we are too eager to ignore in lieu of our personal opinions taking precedence over cases like CG 2.


Consider that it takes it every type of person to affect change. The reason I brought up the Author is actually a hint, here. There are people who see the censorship debate, not as a problem that will ever effect them. People who actually don't care at all about censorship in general, but only as an item of curiosity. The look at people who have a problem with these changes, more as Animals to be examined, who are freaks and weirdos. That's the perspective the anti-censorship crowd gets looked at from the, "Journalistic." Perspective.

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Re: Hot Topic Game Discussion

Postby Rednal » Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:56 pm

neonie wrote:This one to me, actually seems pretty cut and dry. According to Tom, the reason for the age changes came, not because of ratings boards or necessity, but because it made someone from on high feel, "Uncomfortable."

Therefore, that should not have happened. There is no good justification. "It makes me feel bad." Is the worst reason for censorship, and you don't belong anywhere near another countries games, as far as I'm concerned.


Do we have any context for that? I mean, do we actually know if it "made him feel bad", or is it possible that it might have been "this makes me worried about how people might perceive our business"? There's more than one type of uncomfortable, after all.
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