Localization Discussion

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St0ck
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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby St0ck » Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:57 pm

Daverost wrote:
shadowmaksim wrote:
Ultimate_Nova_X wrote:Regardless if people agree with each other or not, one thing is definitely clear:

No one skips over a game because it's too close to the original.

I hope Dood_Abides sees this.


While I'd like to agree, it's best to not get too sure about your absolute there.


That's definitely an absolute. Never once has anyone ever said "This is too close to the thing it already was. I don't want it now even though I wanted it before when it was the same thing it is now."


Arguing in absolutes doesn't make your claim more valid, it just makes you look like a person who doesn't understand statistics or data aggregation.
Just be truthful and say you and all the people you've talked with, or hell make a little poll, but stop it with the false claims.
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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby shadowmaksim » Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:15 am

Daverost wrote:
shadowmaksim wrote:
Ultimate_Nova_X wrote:Regardless if people agree with each other or not, one thing is definitely clear:

No one skips over a game because it's too close to the original.

I hope Dood_Abides sees this.


While I'd like to agree, it's best to not get too sure about your absolute there.


That's definitely an absolute. Never once has anyone ever said "This is too close to the thing it already was. I don't want it now even though I wanted it before when it was the same thing it is now."


Well actually, it isn't.

Around 2 years ago, I remember reading a comment on the Escapist (I think it was there) of someone talking about "Drakengard" for the PS2 and how glad they were that
Spoiler:
all references that one of the protagonists was a gay pedophile removed

since knowing that really creeped them out. Even said that they probably wouldn't have gotten the game if they had known that it was still there, which it wasn't so they okay with it. There were even some comments agreeing to it.

Kind of funny considering all the other messed up things there were in the game.

Anyway, then there was another time, either was at one of the game reviewers on TGWTG or Blistered Thumbs for "Record of Agarest War 2". One of the replies to the video said how while the game looked interesting to them, knowing that there was a bath minigame really put them off so they decided not to get the game. Cue a bunch of more people agreeing with said comment.

Don't get me wrong, I don't find anything wrong with the games I mentioned (I own both games and have no problem with their content). I also disagreed with the opinions being stated as well.

But my point remains. While it may be the vast majority of the time, it isn't a 100% absolute. There are people like that out there believe it or not. I know that I've seen them before.Though my lack of sourced evidences will probably be my downfall regarding this.

Geez, I didn't mean anything greater behind that. It was just an offhand comment I made.

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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby BDSMKane » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:11 am

Ultimate_Nova_X wrote:No one skips over a game because it's too close to the original.
As much as I wish I could agree, I can't, because it really isn't true.

Re: Criminal Girls: Invite Only (Vita) Coming to the West in
snowypaint wrote:Yeah, I'm probably going to get some hate for this but, I'm actually kinda happy its getting censored. Ive wanted to play this game back when it was on the PSP but I never imported because the torture mini game made me a bit uncomfortable.


Though, I will say that while people on video game forums are supposedly a minority, people who make comments such as those seem to be the rarest of the rare. I can't even think of a dozen examples in well over a decade of forum browsing, it just happens that one of them was quite recent and I knew where to find the proof.
BDSMKane wrote:A defective product was released by NIS America on March 25, 2014.....and any support for that product is(by all appearances) non-existent. That's the core issue, and it reeks of poor business ethics.

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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby Seventh » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:15 am

I would think, regardless of how common they may or may not be, catering to people who don't like the content of the game is the kind of thing you explicitly don't do. Those people should just not get the darn thing.
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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby shadowmaksim » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:40 am

Seventh wrote:I would think, regardless of how common they may or may not be, catering to people who don't like the content of the game is the kind of thing you explicitly don't do. Those people should just not get the darn thing.


Umm, no one is saying to cater to these kind of people, at least from what I could tell. I mean, I know I'm not.

I'm just arguing that Ultimate_Nova_X's comment is not actually an absolute.

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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby Seventh » Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:01 am

I wasn't saying anyone was, I was just commenting on the existence of them.
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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby Daverost » Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:25 am

BDSMKane wrote:
Ultimate_Nova_X wrote:No one skips over a game because it's too close to the original.
As much as I wish I could agree, I can't, because it really isn't true.

Re: Criminal Girls: Invite Only (Vita) Coming to the West in
snowypaint wrote:Yeah, I'm probably going to get some hate for this but, I'm actually kinda happy its getting censored. Ive wanted to play this game back when it was on the PSP but I never imported because the torture mini game made me a bit uncomfortable.


Though, I will say that while people on video game forums are supposedly a minority, people who make comments such as those seem to be the rarest of the rare. I can't even think of a dozen examples in well over a decade of forum browsing, it just happens that one of them was quite recent and I knew where to find the proof.


That's not the same argument. The original is that they refuse to buy it because it's the same. This is they want to buy it because it's suddenly more line with what they want. The latter can overlap with the former, but the former can exist by itself and there's no way it's ever been the reason anyone HASN'T bought the game after a localization.

The argument is that if they didn't want it before, they wouldn't want it after localization. That is to say that it's never come to pass that they wanted it before and suddenly don't after localization because nothing changed. If something changes, as above, that's a completely different argument.

St0ck wrote:Arguing in absolutes doesn't make your claim more valid, it just makes you look like a person who doesn't understand statistics or data aggregation.
Just be truthful and say you and all the people you've talked with, or hell make a little poll, but stop it with the false claims.


Okay, let's turn this on you, then. I hold the common opinion. Prove it false. If you claim it to be false, show me the evidence. Of the same argument, not a different one like above.
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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby St0ck » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:57 pm

Daverost wrote:
St0ck wrote:Arguing in absolutes doesn't make your claim more valid, it just makes you look like a person who doesn't understand statistics or data aggregation.
Just be truthful and say you and all the people you've talked with, or hell make a little poll, but stop it with the false claims.

Okay, let's turn this on you, then. I hold the common opinion. Prove it false. If you claim it to be false, show me the evidence. Of the same argument, not a different one like above.


Negative proof fallacy too huh.
I only claimed arguing with absolutes makes you look like someone who doesn't understand statistics or data aggregation, the fact that you're still arguing that you have the common opinion with no data to back it up cements this fact to me.
If I were to argue with you I'd do so from my own opinion, backing up your opinions with lies is deceitful and disingenuous.

Oh and I actually agree with you, I believe the majority of people buy a game hoping for as close of an experience to the original as possible, I'm just not going to bolster my opinion with false claims.
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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby Daverost » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:10 pm

St0ck wrote:Negative proof fallacy too huh.
I only claimed arguing with absolutes makes you look like someone who doesn't understand statistics or data aggregation, the fact that you're still arguing that you have the common opinion with no data to back it up cements this fact to me.
If I were to argue with you I'd do so from my own opinion, backing up your opinions with lies is deceitful and disingenuous.


I don't think you understand how this works. In the face of common acceptance, claims to the contrary require proof. That's your part in this. My part is proven by everyone that's refused to buy this game because it's changed. It's on you to prove that there are people who refuse to buy a game because it isn't changed, if you're going to take the opposite position and deny the claim.

That's not a fallacy. That's common debate logic. You making unsubstantiated claims to the contrary is fallacious.

I didn't make the claim anyway, so bug Nova for proof, but he's not wrong. The evidence supports him without a single counter-example in sight. It remains an absolute until proven otherwise.
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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby shadowmaksim » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:20 pm

Daverost wrote:The evidence supports him without a single counter-example in sight. It remains an absolute until proven otherwise.


I'm pretty sure I posted examples that fit in what you are saying counts as counter-examples. But I take it that they did actually mean squat all then since I didn't have a direct link to source them.

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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby Seventh » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:22 pm

shadowmaksim wrote:
Daverost wrote:The evidence supports him without a single counter-example in sight. It remains an absolute until proven otherwise.

I'm pretty sure I posted examples that fit in what you are saying counts as counter-examples. But I take it that they did actually mean squat all then since I didn't have a direct link to source them.

His reply to BDSMKane applies to your examples too.
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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby Ultimate_Nova_X » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:25 pm

Daverost wrote:so bug Nova for proof,

:o

Daverost, he agrees with us on this point, he just doesn't agree with how absolute the conclusion is. I suggest just drop it for now. It's not worth wasting your own time to make him (or any of us for that matter) look bad.

Most arguments in real-life aren't logical-consequences in the first place, and real logic isn't as robotic as people tend to think it is. That is all.

shadowmaksim wrote:I'm pretty sure I posted examples that fit in what you are saying counts as counter-examples. But I take it that they did actually mean squat all then since I didn't have a direct link to source them.


Man, reading is so overrated.

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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby shadowmaksim » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:42 pm

Ultimate_Nova_X wrote:Man, reading is so overrated.


Thanks for the insult. And here I was expecting something civil.

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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby Ultimate_Nova_X » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:57 pm

There's no need to get worked up, I just used you as an example, frankly, it could've been any of us, including me.

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Re: Localization Discussion

Postby Daverost » Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:53 am

Ultimate_Nova_X wrote:Daverost, he agrees with us on this point, he just doesn't agree with how absolute the conclusion is. I suggest just drop it for now. It's not worth wasting your own time to make him (or any of us for that matter) look bad.


I know, I saw that part. I just don't appreciate being put on the spot as the guy in the wrong for being in the majority (and so far only) opinion when I'm not the one playing Devil's Advocate without any proof to the contrary. Or the one making the point in the first place.

But fine.
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