Cosmospheres

The official forums for all things Ar Tonelico
User avatar
railar
Loyal Vassal
Loyal Vassal
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:50 pm
Contact:

Re: Cosmospheres

Postby railar » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:40 pm

I sort of understand where you're coming from vampko. Seeing the whole of the reyvateil's mind in less than the 1-2 months that the game's timeline has (Just a rough guess, seeing as it obviously takes quite some time to get to one place to another, in the storyline basis. And some events have day(s) that pass before another even is taken place.) It does seem weird that the relationship progresses so smoothly. Although it does seem like cheating, and in a sense, it really is. And outside factors that normally can ruin relationships very easily, i.e. one of the partners commits an act of disloyalty. Such as since the game is technically broken down into a harem visual novel, the MC interacts with more than one reyvateil, and although the other reyvateil clearly shows sign of jealousy, wouldn't that heavily impede the MC's interaction in the cosmosphere? Or shoudln't she bar him out for an alotted time, or just because she's upset, etc etc. But instead go to the dive shop and boom, instant lovey dovey modes. I'm not saying there isn't anything like that: GUST has done a great job in AT2, where depending on how far you got in a reyvateil's cosmosphere, the other completely blocks you out and leaves you stuck at
Spoiler:
level 4
. Although it does hinder late game when the other is very much inferior to the other in their battle specs. In Qoga; however, the limit to the other cutoff is
Spoiler:
Level 8
, which I thought was weird.

In saying that, it's set to where it's not all based on lies either. Sure, you dive to solve internal conflicts with the reyvateil's past that scarred them, in the few hours (In game time, not playtime) you were in the dive, compared to the months it would have taken to have talked, soothed, and helped her talk and confide it in you, then the time it takes to heal the wound that it caused. Which is like using cheatcodes on life, but the later halves of the cosmosphere always heavily include the MC. AT1, for example;
Spoiler:
How in the later levels Misha and Aurica were all about jealousy; how Lyner is always with the other reyvateil, and went so far as to threaten to kill him if he tries to leave her (cosmosphere) and go out into the real world where the other girl could interact with him.
So yes, it is also very dangerous. You can get her to advance in her love for you extremely quickly, but what you can encounter if you do things wrong can also be magnified and cause disdain towards the diver just as quickly. Just like how outside interferences can quickly shut down a relationship that was growing, and looking to be on a spectacular path. Sorry, I ramble > ->...

One last piece. I also see it's too sped up on how fast the paradigm shifts occur. Omitting
Spoiler:
Finnel and her illusionary world. "Hi, i'm Aoto!" [PARADIGM SHIFT]
and all that mess, I think the MC should have to go through a bit more crap or turmoil before the shift happens. Albeit in order to dive further, you have to do the "nightly talks" which translate to talking a couple topics every night, which could span a month or two. Which is honestly a major way to earn bonus points with (some) females. Talking down to earth every night about random topics mixed with a few personal ones with no one else around can help someone learn about the person they're with. Coupled with the daily heroics the MC does like saving them, and being cool, and etc etc. One could expect a relationship to start, or flourish, quicker with those settings versus a relationship of normal people interacting normally.

My view's totally subjected, but those are my thoughts. Sorry for the super long omega post, but hey, it's a forum XD. Look forward to a reply.
Image

User avatar
Reth
Geo Master
Geo Master
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:19 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Re: Cosmospheres

Postby Reth » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:53 pm

I also see where you're coming from vampko, but I'd say the answer is both "yes" and "no" - however as the series progresses I'm more and more inclined to agree with you.

I don't know how many people around here have actually played the first two so I apologize if my references don't make much sense, but here goes.

In Ar Tonelico 1, the Cosmosphere played very little role in the actual development on the relationships. Misha was already head over heels for Lyner and Aurica had more than enough reason to develop a close bond with Lyner as a sort of "damsel in distress" type - the cosmosphere in Ar Tonelico 1 was moreso about stabilising their own mentality and insecurities rather than developing a relationship between Reyvatail and Diver.

In Ar Tonelico 2, it was half-half. Luca, like Misha, had a pre-established relationship with Croix, giving their relationship a head start (You could say that is cheating as well in a sense), and Cloche, similar to Aurica had plenty of time to establish a relationship, but then there's Jacqli, which was a sort of half-half situation. I'll put the rest of my thoughts on Jacqli in a spoiler,
Spoiler:
You could argue the entire development of their relationship was done almost completely in the cosmosphere, but I honestly feel that for the CroixXJacqli ship, their relationship ends on a different status than the others. Through the Cosmosphere, Croix learns Jacqli's true name, Mir, and then performs a romantic serenade to her in the real world - and there a powerful relationship begins rather than what you could call an "end" in the case of Cloche and Luca. It was the cosmosphere that helped Croix start the relationship.


In Ar Tonelico 3 however, I almost completely agree with you. There was very little romantic development out of the cosmosphere apart from Finnel's star watching and Saki getting rescued from the "castle" over and over. In Tyria's case, there was hardly even any development in the cosmosphere either. I am bias, as I did not enjoy Ar Tonelico 3 much at all, but that lack of development is the very reasoning for my bias, so I think it's fair to use in arguement.
Spoiler:
If only Cocona's ending wasn't such a LIE I would have contented myself with that instead Cocona was adorable in 3.


As for your question about voice acting? Meh, I could go either way - the voices in my head talk to me anyway (Wait, that came out wrong...)
Image
Image

User avatar
kotakoni
Netherworld Baron
Netherworld Baron
Posts: 896
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:13 am
Location: Ice Inferno
Contact:

Re: Cosmospheres

Postby kotakoni » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:16 am

Reth wrote:In Ar Tonelico 3 however, I almost completely agree with you. There was very little romantic development out of the cosmosphere apart from Finnel's star watching and Saki getting rescued from the "castle" over and over. In Tyria's case, there was hardly even any development in the cosmosphere either. I am bias, as I did not enjoy Ar Tonelico 3 much at all, but that lack of development is the very reasoning for my bias, so I think it's fair to use in arguement.
Spoiler:
If only Cocona's ending wasn't such a LIE I would have contented myself with that instead Cocona was adorable in 3.


As for your question about voice acting? Meh, I could go either way - the voices in my head talk to me anyway (Wait, that came out wrong...)

Actually, Tilia's cosmosphere played a huge role in the story. You really can't go her route without completing it.

aquagon
Netherworld Nobility
Netherworld Nobility
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:21 pm

Re: Cosmospheres

Postby aquagon » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:28 pm

kotakoni wrote:
Reth wrote:In Ar Tonelico 3 however, I almost completely agree with you. There was very little romantic development out of the cosmosphere apart from Finnel's star watching and Saki getting rescued from the "castle" over and over. In Tyria's case, there was hardly even any development in the cosmosphere either. I am bias, as I did not enjoy Ar Tonelico 3 much at all, but that lack of development is the very reasoning for my bias, so I think it's fair to use in arguement.
Spoiler:
If only Cocona's ending wasn't such a LIE I would have contented myself with that instead Cocona was adorable in 3.


As for your question about voice acting? Meh, I could go either way - the voices in my head talk to me anyway (Wait, that came out wrong...)

Actually, Tilia's cosmosphere played a huge role in the story. You really can't go her route without completing it.


You can't even finish the game without at least completing the first level actually, as that's what allows her to remember the rest of EXEC_REBIRTHIA=PROTOCOL/.

User avatar
Reth
Geo Master
Geo Master
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:19 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Re: Cosmospheres

Postby Reth » Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:44 pm

The last three posts


I never disputed the importance of Tyria's cosmosphere on the story - I thought we were talking about the romantic developments in this thread though? :P
Image
Image

aquagon
Netherworld Nobility
Netherworld Nobility
Posts: 434
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:21 pm

Re: Cosmospheres

Postby aquagon » Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:12 pm

Reth wrote:
The last three posts


I never disputed the importance of Tyria's cosmosphere on the story - I thought we were talking about the romantic developments in this thread though? :P


There's also the fact that if Tyria looking at Aoto's actions to change her final fate in the past (even if that wasn't possible in the present) ended making her fall in love with him don't count as actual romantic developments (and in fact, her route can't be locked without doing it), I don't see how the developments in other Cosmospheres/Binary Fields, such as Shurelia's or Mir's, would count.

User avatar
Reth
Geo Master
Geo Master
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:19 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Re: Cosmospheres

Postby Reth » Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:22 pm

aquagon wrote:
Reth wrote:
The last three posts


I never disputed the importance of Tyria's cosmosphere on the story - I thought we were talking about the romantic developments in this thread though? :P


There's also the fact that if Tyria looking at Aoto's actions to change her final fate in the past (even if that wasn't possible in the present) ended making her fall in love with him don't count as actual romantic developments (and in fact, her route can't be locked without doing it), I don't see how the developments in other Cosmospheres/Binary Fields, such as Shurelia's or Mir's, would count.


A fair point, and one I don't disagree with. In the case with all Shurelia, Mir and Tyria there was little time for development being such late entries into the story - the difference is how each route was written. I can't comment on Shurelia's much because I haven't personally played her end and only read up on it, and I don't want to give an uneducated arguement, so I'll compare Jacqli and Tyria.

Firstly, there's the obvious point - Jacqli was introduced at the end of phase 2, out of 5 phases in Ar Tonelico 2 giving her significantly more time to develop a relationship with Croix and contribute to the story in multiple ways. Tyria is introduced at the start of phase 4, out of... 4 phases. Therein lies the obvious fact that though yes, Tyria is an essential part of the plot as an Origin - there was literally -no- development of any relationship between her and Aoto in the game itself apart from the scene you get at the end of the game if you chose her route. It all happens in the cosmosphere, and even that was arguably unfounded.

Now, with the obvious out of the way lets compare the cosmospheres -

Jacqli's cosmosphere started by showing a story to Croix and making him assume a role and identity that was not his own. So did Tyria - so check - they're the same so far. Tyria's lasted 3 levels, ending with the "true" conclusion of the story, where Aoto was still playing the role that Tyria put him in - and that's the end. Tyria and Aoto now love eachother.

Jacqli's cosmosphere however breaks due to her feelings getting too invovled, and the ficiton ends as Croix begins diving into her the same as he would with the other girls, learns her true name, learns about her self destructive nature, stops her from trying to destroy herself and so on... I don't need to go into detail on what happened but the point is there, a genuine dive into her subconcious.

Now, that's the cosmospheres done - now lets compare what happened after the cosmosphere was complete.

Obviously due to the limitations the game has in place with the multiple romance options, the story itself has no dialogue changes until the very end, so we can only compare the private talk topics and the ending scenes itself which is personalized for each girl. So lets have a look at those endings. Tyria and Aoto are now in love, apparently, after a single conversation they had after finishing a dive, there's no need for further discussion about it, they just are - ACCEPT IT ALRIGHT?

Now, Jacqli's end - As I said in my previous post, this is a half-half case between the "cheating" factor of the cosmospheres, but also half genuine due to the different way it is treated and approached. Croix feelings are set, as he has full memories of what happened in the cosmosphere and has fallen for her because of it. As they clearly say throughout the game though, Jacqli does not have full clear memories of what happened in the cosmospheres, but her feelings are slightly influenced, hence her tentative reaction to Croix's confession. He serenades her, with one of the most romantic events I've seen in a JRPG, and there a relationship begins. To quote Jacqil "I cannot lie, I am very attracted to you." - there was none of this fake "I love you too" talk - it was a relationship beginning.

In conclusion, and getting back on topic, yes the cosmosphere is sort of a cheat, but in most cases the Cosmosphere works hand-in-hand with the real world and they can compliment eachother, giving their relationship an extra dimension.

The funny thing about this whole arguement is that I actually chose the Tyria route in Qoga, and she was my favourite out of three very uninspired choices (Not including Cocona of course - I intentionally avoided her ending because It was a lie T_T)

Anyway, yeah I'm bias - but who isn't?
Image
Image


Return to “Ar Tonelico Series”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests